New Las Vegas residency show!

[maki_Dion-er]

 

 

Maybe so, but here in the South, my experience with choirs is this: they originated in African American Southern Baptist churches. For a French, white, Catholic lady to take a gospel choir and insert it into random songs in a Las Vegas show, yes that strikes me as callous appropriation. It may have been acceptable up until now, and even popular in many pop songs, but times and ethics have changed.

 

And no, it's not like saying including male dancers is callous to the gay population. That statement doesn't even make sense. It's not about whether people in the choir are black or white because choirs are inherently black. Male dancers are not inherently gay.

 

Anyway, it isn't a matter to discuss anymore here. It was a made-up setlist.

 

Choirs have existed long before America. Choirs have a history in Ancient Greece, in Europe, Gregorean chants. It's not specific to black culture. Celine including a choir does not automatically mean it'll be a gospel choir either.

 

There is such a thing as going to extremes. I'm fully supportive of the BLM movement but Celine not being able to use a choir if she wanted to is silly.

 

[maki_Dion-er]

Double post. Delete. Edited August 25, 2021 at 01:52 AM by maki_Dion-er

[Nmj]

 

 

Callous towards the BLM cause just because of a choir being included? Good grief. That's like saying including male dancers during a number is callous to the gay populous. Not every person in a choir is black. Not every male dancer is gay. I'm all for the BLM movement, but I think you're taking things to an insanely extreme level with this one.

 

100% this.

 

What’s a choir have to do with BLM? Even if we that your logic… and say the choir is 100% black (which it wouldn’t be) that would result in Celine employing black artists full time…which would never be a bad thing.

 

Now that we know the show won’t have dancers or a orchestra I sincerely hope they bring in a choir…would bring life to songs like LCMM that she most likely will add to the setlist for zillionth time.

Edited August 25, 2021 at 02:01 AM by Nmj

[ehild]

Personally, a choir is a lot of choreography of people night after night (Amy other "issues" aside). A one night event, ok. Routinely in Vegas is different. And especially if they do end up adding in any dancers...that's just too many people to be realistic. Now, utilizing her back up singers in such a way they mimic a choir-like effect for certain songs, that could be cool. And different. Assuming they're up for it LOL

[MTJ]

Choirs have existed long before America. Choirs have a history in Ancient Greece, in Europe, Gregorean chants. It's not specific to black culture. Celine including a choir does not automatically mean it'll be a gospel choir either.

 

There is such a thing as going to extremes. I'm fully supportive of the BLM movement but Celine not being able to use a choir if she wanted to is silly.

 

All previous examples I can cite of Celine with a choir are Celine with a gospel choir. Not a Catholic choir of alter boys, not a choir of Gregorian monks, nor Greek muses. We're talking clapping, swaying, good 'ol fashioned gospel choirs. And I'm not saying the choirs don't want to sing with her, I bet they do.

 

I'm not standing down on this, but I doubt most of you would ever agree with me.

[Nmj]

 

 

All previous examples I can cite of Celine with a choir are Celine with a gospel choir. Not a Catholic choir of alter boys, not a choir of Gregorian monks, nor Greek muses. We're talking clapping, swaying, good 'ol fashioned gospel choirs. And I'm not saying the choirs don't want to sing with her, I bet they do.

 

I'm not standing down on this, but I doubt most of you would ever agree with me.

 

Whether you like a choir or not that’s one thing… whether it’s a realistic option for Vegas is also left to argument. However, the BLM reasoning you gave is bogus. Employing a majority black choir ( if it was) is a very pro BLM stance if anything at all.

[MTJ]

What's a choir have to do with BLM? Even if we that your logic… and say the choir is 100% black (which it wouldn't be) that would result in Celine employing black artists full time…which would never be a bad thing.

 

I'm not saying all the singers would be black.

 

I'm saying gospel choirs as they have been used by Celine in the past are a creation of African American Southern Baptist culture.

 

BLM rejects the normalized idea that it's ok to cherrypick things that have been created by black talent and appropriate them into white culture. In other words, BLM means Celine can no longer use an African American Southern Baptist choir, because people who look like Celine have been using these people for their talents for centuries. At the end of the day, Celine is making more than half a million dollars a show. Meanwhile, these people who look like Celine have power in the politics and economics that systematically keep these minorities from having the same opportunities as whites. I don't feel like it should be my job to spell this out for everyone.

 

So, it wouldn't be a bad thing for more minorities to be represented on Celine's team, no. But let Beyonce have the choir - they're both coming from the same place. Let Celine bring out a Canadian folk band or something - all her brothers and sisters, I don't know. Anything but a gospel choir (and please, no more rap interludes where the rapper goes uncredited!!!)

Edited August 25, 2021 at 02:44 AM by MTJ

[PuraVida]

I'm not saying all the singers would be black.

 

I'm saying gospel choirs as they have been used by Celine in the past are a creation of African American Southern Baptist culture.

 

BLM rejects the normalized idea that it's ok to cherrypick things that have been created by black talent and appropriate them into white culture. In other words, BLM means Celine can no longer use an African American Southern Baptist choir, because people who look like Celine have been using these people for their talents for centuries. At the end of the day, Celine is making more than half a million dollars a show. Meanwhile, these people who look like Celine have power in the politics and economics that systematically keep these minorities from having the same opportunities as whites. I don't feel like it should be my job to spell this out for everyone.

 

So, it wouldn't be a bad thing for more minorities to be represented on Celine's team, no. But let Beyonce have the choir - they're both coming from the same place. Let Celine bring out a Canadian folk band or something - all her brothers and sisters, I don't know. Anything but a gospel choir (and please, no more rap interludes where the rapper goes uncredited!!!)

 

Paying people fairly and giving them credit is of the utmost importance. But appropriation does not happen when there is a voluntary, active collaboration i.e. they rehearse together and then sing together on stage. Singing while physically together on stage seems like a far more balanced power relation.

 

I would rather hear from a gospel choir themselves (assuming she did not choose a secular chorus which is more than possible to do) about what they think. It would be up to them to decide whether to take the gig and sing secular songs.

 

I think as long as there is respect for each other and respect for human rights, communities and cultures should mix.

[MTJ]

Paying people fairly and giving them credit is of the utmost importance. But appropriation does not happen when there is a voluntary, active collaboration i.e. they rehearse together and then sing together on stage. Singing while physically together on stage seems like a far more balanced power relation.

 

I would rather hear from a gospel choir themselves (assuming she did not choose a secular chorus which is more than possible to do) about what they think. It would be up to them to decide whether to take the gig and sing secular songs.

 

I think as long as there is respect for each other and respect for human rights, communities and cultures should mix.

 

Everyone has an opinion - I would rather hear specifically from a BLM leader/philosopher than from a member of a random church choir, since my original comment was that the inclusion of a gospel choir would be callous to the BLM movement, not to the choir. I'm sure anyone you ask would say they'd love to work for Celine.

 

And yes, appropriation can happen with consent. Just because one person consents to it, it doesn't mean it doesn't have consequences for other people in their world.

Edited August 25, 2021 at 03:01 AM by MTJ

[PuraVida]

Everyone has an opinion - I would rather hear specifically from a BLM leader/philosopher than from a member of a random church choir, since my original comment was that the inclusion of a gospel choir would be callous to the BLM movement, not to the choir. I'm sure anyone you ask would say they'd love to work for Celine.

 

And yes, appropriation can happen with consent. Just because one person consents to it, it doesn't mean it doesn't have consequences for other people in their world.

 

The problem with this specific approach is that it bends back around to being offensive. You start wanting to help people, but actually don't consult them and take away their agency...which is exactly one major violation that society already commits against people of colour.

 

"I won't talk to gospel choir members, I'd rather talk to the (presumably college-educated) leader or 'philosopher' who deigns to tell them how they should feel."

 

And I didn't say one member consenting, I said "the gospel choir themselves". And appropriation is at its heart "a taking of/from" rather than "a collective sharing" which is what would be happening.

Edited August 25, 2021 at 03:12 AM by PuraVida

[Nmj]

 

 

I'm not saying all the singers would be black.

 

I'm saying gospel choirs as they have been used by Celine in the past are a creation of African American Southern Baptist culture.

 

BLM rejects the normalized idea that it's ok to cherrypick things that have been created by black talent and appropriate them into white culture. In other words, BLM means Celine can no longer use an African American Southern Baptist choir, because people who look like Celine have been using these people for their talents for centuries. At the end of the day, Celine is making more than half a million dollars a show. Meanwhile, these people who look like Celine have power in the politics and economics that systematically keep these minorities from having the same opportunities as whites. I don't feel like it should be my job to spell this out for everyone.

 

So, it wouldn't be a bad thing for more minorities to be represented on Celine's team, no. But let Beyonce have the choir - they're both coming from the same place. Let Celine bring out a Canadian folk band or something - all her brothers and sisters, I don't know. Anything but a gospel choir (and please, no more rap interludes where the rapper goes uncredited!!!)

 

Paying a choir for their talents isn’t “using” them . It’s employing them all while bringing joy to the audience, it’s art.

Edited August 25, 2021 at 03:17 AM by Nmj

[MTJ]

The problem with this specific approach is that it bends back around to being offensive. You start wanting to help people, but actually don't consult them and take away their agency...which is exactly one major violation that society already commits against people of colour.

 

"I won't talk to gospel choir members, I'd rather talk to the (presumably college-educated) leader or 'philosopher' who deigns to tell them how they should feel."

 

And I didn't say one member consenting, I said "the gospel choir themselves". And appropriation is at its heart "a taking of/from" rather than "a collective sharing" which is what would be happening.

 

That's fair. Reflecting more on it, I guess my plea is more a cry of caution to other entertainers. Celine is an enigma, and undoubtedly would not offend even if she did something other white people probably shouldn't try to pull off. Here's a good article I just read on the subject:

 

https://www.nytimes....ropriation.html

 

It mentions the "noises" black artists are often known for which their white counterpoints don't exhibit. However, it's basically a check list of artists Celine has payed tribute to, and in those performances she never hesitates to show off her recreations of their vocal acrobatics. Jackson, Prince, etc. It brings to mind the Franklin tribute, and how moved the audience was - primarily the black members of the audience (so moved by a white woman singing a black woman's song).

 

I think the point I've been missing is this: the damage is done when something is taken from a less dominant culture that members of that culture find undesirable or offensive. Celine's use of choirs aren't offensive to anyone, so my point is null.

Edited August 25, 2021 at 03:39 AM by MTJ

[PuraVida]

That's fair. Reflecting more on it, I guess my plea is more a cry of caution to other entertainers. Celine is an enigma, and undoubtedly would not offend even if she did something other white people probably shouldn't try to pull off. Here's a good article I just read on the subject:

 

https://www.nytimes....ropriation.html

 

It mentions the "noises" black artists are often known for which their white counterpoints don't exhibit. However, it's basically a check list of artists Celine has payed tribute to, and in those performances she never hesitates to show off her recreations of their vocal acrobatics. Jackson, Prince, etc. It brings to mind the Franklin tribute, and how moved the audience was - primarily the black members of the audience (so moved by a white woman singing a black woman's song).

 

I think the only people who could ever hold a grudge are the ones offended by Celinenununu

 

I think you are coming from the right place, a good place. We must be conscious of these things and ask questions, and Black Lives Matter is too important to neglect. White entertainers should be very thoughtful about how they interact with and "use" black talent. But appropriation and exploitation are very specific things, and where the lines are blurred I would say the best thing to do is to ask the consenting party involved.

 

So much of modern music is built off of black talent and heritage. Rhythm and blues (in the South particularly) and black artists like Little Richard laid the foundations for what white artists would imitate/copy and get credit for. That's my understanding at least. And yes they too often get too little credit or money for being the cultural trailblazers. The article you shared seems to get at that, so I will definitely read it.

 

Relatedly, in general I feel America is too much focused on cultural rights rather than economic rights.

Edited August 25, 2021 at 03:39 AM by PuraVida

[symon]

 

 

I think it would be callous to the BLM cause for Celine to pull out a choir for random pop songs like I'm Alive - we aren't in 1996 anymore. Also, I'm not wanting her to focus into Tina (as much as I love Tina). There are plenty of other covers out there for her to try on.

 

In terms of the push and pull of your setlist, I don't think the show is going to be that much of an emotional rollercoaster, with no children and choirs and tributes and songs of intense desperation, and with "Happy" right after 2017 Le ballet. The casino is trying to get people excited, not emotionally exhausted.

 

I'm looking forward to some classics, some covers, some flashy tech, and some beautiful costumes.

 

I don t think about Pharell's happy but celine's one . And for the choir, i did not think about people color...

[GoldenLeaf]

 

 

Paying a choir for their talents isn’t “using” them . It’s employing them all while bringing joy to the audience, it’s art.

Agreed! If Mariah Carey can employ a gospel choir in her shows, so does Celine. But TBH with the whole COVID thing, I don't think it will happen anyway since there would be too much people on the stage.

Edited August 25, 2021 at 04:58 AM by GoldenLeaf

[maki_Dion-er]

I think the point I've been missing is this: the damage is done when something is taken from a less dominant culture that members of that culture find undesirable or offensive. Celine's use of choirs aren't offensive to anyone, so my point is null.

 

Yes. Celine has always been very appreciative of other cultures and has always been very good at giving dues and doing things respectful. When she has recorded gospel music it's been to showcase her love of that genre of music and has made sure to use actual gospel choirs as opposed to using normal choirs and having them sing gospel music. Her singing at Aretha's tribute was because Aretha herself asked for her and the song she chose was specifically because she knew what it meant to Aretha. She wasn't taking ownership of the song, she was honoring Aretha. When she does artist tributes she may mimic their sounds or movements but she only does so while doing the song, it's not something she has taken and uses for her own gains. But we can argue that she has some mannerisms that are similar to Michael Jackson but in this instance it's more a case of her being such a fan that she has subconsciously adopted those mannerisms.

 

Celine's delicacy is such that she didn't want to record This Time because she felt it wasn't her place to sing "on behalf of those abuse women"

(I'd love to hear a medley of This Time paired with Lying Down)

[Céline RO]

I don t think about Pharell's happy but celine's one . And for the choir, i did not think about people color...

 

You mean “Make You Happy”?

[symon]

 

 

You mean “Make You Happy”?

 

Yes sorry !

[PuraVida]

Celine's alleged seating chart for the 2021 Met Gala

[CelinesDIVO5]

There have been a lot of pretty interesting changes recently from her camp… so either she has a new manager or she made the most of the pandemic and done an online management course while in that farm!

 

What kind of changes have you noticed?

[CelinesDIVO5]

 

 

All previous examples I can cite of Celine with a choir are Celine with a gospel choir. Not a Catholic choir of alter boys, not a choir of Gregorian monks, nor Greek muses. We're talking clapping, swaying, good 'ol fashioned gospel choirs. And I'm not saying the choirs don't want to sing with her, I bet they do.

 

I'm not standing down on this, but I doubt most of you would ever agree with me.

 

Celine brought a local children’s choir on stage, every single night for the LTAL tour for the opening number. On the TAST TV Special, she also had a children’s choir in addition to an adult choir that was made up of people from all different races and ethnicities.

[nuts2you]

https://vegas.eater.com/2021/8/25/22639989/restaurants-bars-opening-soon-resorts-world-fall-winter-2021

 

Not celine related but thought that I'll share ,

[MTJ]

Celine brought a local children's choir on stage, every single night for the LTAL tour for the opening number. On the TAST TV Special, she also had a children's choir in addition to an adult choir that was made up of people from all different races and ethnicities.

 

But we're talking about LCMM, Call the Man, I'm Alive, etc. on this fan made setlist, not Aren't They All Our Children? nor LTAL.

[MTJ]

https://vegas.eater....all-winter-2021

 

Not celine related but thought that I'll share ,

 

More related than what we've been going on about!

 

I'm not sure where to stay yet. Makes sense to stay at RW, though I'd like to try the Waldorf Astoria that took over the Mandarin Oriental, too.

[maki_Dion-er]

But we're talking about LCMM, Call the Man, I'm Alive, etc. on this fan made setlist, not Aren't They All Our Children? nor LTAL.

 

The person never mentioned a gospel choir for I'm Alive. The song is also not a gospel song so it wouldn't need a gospel choir, but if Celine wants to use a gospel choir there still shouldn't be an issue with that.

 

But I highly doubt we'll see a choir, though it would be nice. We've had Vegas shows with dancers, an orchestra, a choir would be a different choice.

Edited August 26, 2021 at 01:20 AM by maki_Dion-er

[MTJ]

At this point I definitely hope there are no choirs.

 

I need to distract myself with this new Superwoman song for a while. Two more days! I'm going Celine stir crazy.

[couldawouldashoulda]

Considering Dianne has released 2 singles from the album already and neither of them are Celine's, I imagine it may not be one of the strongest tracks on the album. I'm hoping I'm wrong. Would be nice to have a new Celine song and possibly something she could sing in Vegas.

[ehild]

Considering Dianne has released 2 singles from the album already and neither of them are Celine's, I imagine it may not be one of the strongest tracks on the album. I'm hoping I'm wrong. Would be nice to have a new Celine song and possibly something she could sing in Vegas.

If they plan on using it as a single, and assuming she does perform it in Vegas, I feel like they'd hold it as a single until closer to the premiere. Like maybe on October?? Build hype leading up to the show.

[Chantemoi]

Intimate to me sounds like more acoustics, more piano, less flashing lights.

 

Which songs are intimate in Celine's career?

 

I’m still holding out for “If Walls Could Talk” to have its day in the sun 🙂

[maki_Dion-er]

I'm still holding out for "If Walls Could Talk" to have its day in the sun

 

I would love that. I'd pair it with something like I Want You to Need Me or Next Plane Out.