"Courage" album - Official Topic

[Xpresso]

or just listen to this song...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAOwMUy1iws

 

Wow amazing song and performance! It sure looks and sounds like an Artist with a capital A.

Without a voice like that, the song wouldn't be called art.

[PuraVida]

I sense my dismissive tone bothered you.

 

Let me explain. My post was somewhat dismissive in the sense that it drew upon a universally accepted notion of art involving a wide range of activities including singing. You want to challenge what is universally accepted and this is fine by me. Besides, you definitely have the right to do so. It is you, however, who ultimately dismisses a considerable range of skills by saying only creators are artists. In that sense, the burden of proof falls on your side. We can agree to disagree anytime, sticking to our respective definitions, but please do not think you have reinvented the wheel here. Or that your definition has any sense of complexity. It is quite the opposite actually.

 

Don't worry, despite how I might sound I don't take anything personally whatsoever. I wholeheartedly respect everyone on here, and enjoy (almost ) everyone too. But I was insisting on the point that we can't just live life accepting definitions handed down to us, nor can you have a debate unless people define their terms and explain their reasoning. I am sure you would agree. That's what I tried to mean by "complex"...but I should have said "specify". I think it's awesome you have 4 points that you think define performing as an art, and folks are welcome to agree with that or not. I think we can narrow things down and separate things into categories without being dismissive as such.

 

I don't dismiss how necessary performers are, how skilled they are, how expressive they are, or the emotions they make me feel too. I envy them and value them in life. I understand completely why colloquially we would call them artists, as I would do in most passing conversation. For me, though, there is a real difference about where the essential core of the art comes from and whose ideas/experience they are expressing. I melt at Celine singing "First Time Ever I Saw Your Face", but the true artists' credit goes to Roberta Flack because she actually created the words, the language to express the things in that song. It was her vision, was the one who created a something from nothing.

 

By the way, I'm sure people are yawning...but sorry this is the stuff I write when there's no Celine updates to be had.

Edited June 8, 2020 at 05:36 PM by PuraVida

[LukeD]

If she couldn't bother to write one damn song for the "Courage" album, an album supposedly about the death of Rene and having the strength to move on afterwards, that speaks volumes to me. How the hell is relying on someone else to write about the death of your husband art? It isn't. It's laziness and disrespectful, in my opinion.

This is such a disgusting thing to say. In my opinion.

[SuperLove4Celine]

This is such a disgusting thing to say. In my opinion.

 

I understand my words can be viewed as harsh. I accept that. Sometimes, though, being blunt is more impactful than sugar-coating things, and continuing to remain complacent about topics at hand. In this case, artist v. performer/entertainer.

[ryba]

Céline is an artist.

 

Céline is an artist.

 

I'm glad we've finally figured it out. hahahah

[Xpresso]

This is such a disgusting thing to say. In my opinion.

Exactly. His message is more than disrespectful. If a fan thinks she's lazy and disrespectful, what the hell are they doing here? Seriously.

[CelinesDIVO5]

 

 

The same feeling, by definition, cannot be expressed in "opposite" ways. That is a logical error. You were the one to bring up the words "totally opposite" which, I, found laughable. Nuance is a separate question.

 

As I stated, I already agreed that performers can have nuance in their interpretation. There is some room for interpretation within a performance, of course...and that is the beauty of performance. But the singer/actress will never be the one to set the basic terms of exp<b></b>ression, and unless you have total freedom over the fundamental meaning/boundaries/and essence you are not an artist.

 

The point is that art can coexist without a performer, but the performer cannot exist without the art. An interpretation is not a piece of art, and you can never technically truly "reinvent" something, you can only create something different. Celine literally gets told how to sing in studio most of the time, usually following a carbon copy of a demo someone else made from a song someone else wrote expressing their point of view on the world. And same goes for live performances (2006 "Summertime" carbon copy of Rene Olstead). If Celine were tasked with writing a song on the exact same theme, she would produce something different and show her own viewpoint. But that's not what happens 99% of the time.

 

“An interpretation is not a piece of art...”

 

I guess we can just say “screw you” to all interpretive dancers then.

[SuperLove4Celine]

Exactly. His message is more than disrespectful. If a fan thinks she's lazy and disrespectful, what the hell are they doing here? Seriously.

 

Because I still enjoy listening to her voice. She has an amazing vocal talent. Just not artistic talent.

[jpatdeleon09]

Oh she said she’s an artist (5:39) Told Ya! She’s an artist

 

[Ajax]

 

 

The same feeling, by definition, cannot be expressed in "opposite" ways. That is a logical error. You were the one to bring up the words "totally opposite" which, I, found laughable. Nuance is a separate

 

Of course it can be interpreted in opposite ways. I really suggest that you read about acting and the complex relation between an actress and the director. You can have opposite way of expressing a same script. I used on purpose Catherine Deneuve as she is known for her inimitable minimalist and her particular rhythm in her phrasing. It would be totally opposite to the way the same script would be interpreted but Marion Cotillard as an example. While one would express romanticism and coldness the other would express anger in her game for a same script just as an example. Same would apply in song interpretation. the artistry of an interpretation is such a large and deep spectrum. I always admired interprets and their arts. This is something sometimes not tangible and way beyond technical skills. Why some people telling exactly the same story will make your whole body vibrates while some others won’t won’t do anything. Why some people by their art will be able to attract millions of people. I would paraphrase LukeD and the énumérations he made. It s fascinating. It s pure art.

Edited June 8, 2020 at 05:56 PM by Ajax

[CelinesDIVO5]

 

 

Diane creates art out of nothing. She creates lyrics and musical compositions from her own artistry. Celine, though, relies on others to do the heavy lifting for her. She is a paint by numbers singer with an exceptional voice. Sure, she can blend the blues and the greens better than someone else who doesn’t have the trained technique, but all she’s doing is going off of somebody else’s template, their work, their artistry. Celine has shown glimmers of hope at being an artist. The piano work in “Ce n’etait qu’un reve,” and chorus in “Don’t Save It All For Christmas Day” are a couple examples, but she has done practically nothing else. If she couldn’t bother to write one damn song for the “Courage” album, an album supposedly about the death of Rene and having the strength to move on afterwards, that speaks volumes to me. How the hell is relying on someone else to write about the death of your husband art? It isn’t. It’s laziness and disrespectful, in my opinion. And as for the different arrangements of her songs on stage vs. on her albums? That is more than likely thanks to people like Scott and Mego. I highly doubt Celine has ever actually sat down at the piano, the drums, or picked up a guitar and wrote brand new arrangements herself. Again, she’s relied on others to do the hard part for her.

 

She did brainstorm the idea for mixing a classical piece into the strings for TSMGO, and in some of the “TC” sessions, you can see her participation in the production while recording. Everyone is making her seem so robotic, and that is just not the case.

[Ajax]

This is such a disgusting thing to say. In my opinion.

 

Well we should be used to it now.

[AdrienneM]

There is literally a reason the title “recording artist” exists. On top of that if we really wanted to get to the nitty gritty, she’s showcasing videos of her dancing, which in itself is a form of art, a form of expression, making her an artist, the way she performs, facial expressions, movement, vocal inflections and changes in tone, output and phrasing, all ARTISTIC CHOICES. As Mariah would say: “It’s acting dahhhling”

[Ajax]

 

 

“An interpretation is not a piece of art...”

 

I guess we can just say “screw you” to all interpretive dancers then.

 

Dancers and so many other artistic jobs. Some dancers could just literally drains you with their art, their expressions. Cause that s how they decided to express the choreography they learnt.

[Ajax]

There is literally a reason the title “recording artist” exists. On top of that if we really wanted to get to the nitty gritty, she’s showcasing videos of her dancing, which in itself is a form of art, a form of exp<b></b>ression, making her an artist, the way she performs, facial exp<b></b>ressions, movement, vocal inflections and changes in tone, output and phrasing, all ARTISTIC CHOICES. As Mariah would say: “It’s acting dahhhling”

 

exactly

[Ajax]

Oh she said she’s an artist (5:39) Told Ya! She’s an artist

 

 

😅I begin to like you.

[PuraVida]

A song is not really a script though. You can interpret a song any way you want and it's going to come off however you interpret it. For example: Lara Fabian's "I Will Love Again." The single version of the song is a dance hall bash, and with the interpretation Lara gave to that version, the song comes off as an anthem to be strong and move on. Then she did a ballad version. Same exact lyrics, but the interpretation is completely different. More melancholy. Still saying "I will love again..." but the mood of the song is more "I need time to move on, I have to take one day at a time." as opposed to "I will move on, and I'll do it strong. The attitude is completely different.

 

To be able to sing a love song like Celine does, and make you believe that she believes what she's singing is pure art. Anyone who can carry a tune can sing a song. But not everyone who sings can make you believe the lyrics they are singing.

 

Uh-oh, a mention of Lara Fabian the "Celine imitator" being an artist. Quick before certain members start setting fire to things!

 

A song is a script, in a way. It automatically sets a scene for a protagonist going through a particular state of being or events, and sets the boundaries for an accepted believable range of emotions/actions...all determined by the artist. You would never hear an upbeat, dance version of "Hurt" by Johnny Cash...it just wouldn't make sense. You can't interpret that song any way you want, it is rather fixed. Whereas I believe the Lara song has built within it both attitudes because there are dual feelings expressed in the song...there is a wider spectrum of interpretation. But this is exactly my point: the artist is the one who gets to define how much much freedom of expression their is in the song. It's the artists' world and the performer is just living in it.

[CelinesDIVO5]

 

 

Don't worry, despite how I might sound I don't take anything personally whatsoever. I wholeheartedly respect everyone on here, and enjoy (almost ) everyone too. But I was insisting on the point that we can't just live life accepting definitions handed down to us, nor can you have a debate unless people define their terms and explain their reasoning. I am sure you would agree. That's what I tried to mean by "complex"...but I should have said "specify". I think it's awesome you have 4 points that you think define performing as an art, and folks are welcome to agree with that or not. I think we can narrow things down and separate things into categories without being dismissive as such.

 

I don't dismiss how necessary performers are, how skilled they are, how expressive they are, or the emotions they make me feel too. I envy them and value them in life. I understand completely why colloquially we would call them artists, as I would do in most passing conversation. For me, though, there is a real difference about where the essential core of the art comes from and whose ideas/experience they are expressing. I melt at Celine singing "First Time Ever I Saw Your Face", but the true artists' credit goes to Roberta Flack because she actually created the words, the language to express the things in that song. It was her vision, was the one who created a something from nothing.

 

By the way, I'm sure people are yawning...but sorry this is the stuff I write when there's no Celine updates to be had.

 

What about songwriters who write specifically for an artist. They have a vision that they feel only one voice can bring to life. How is the vocalist not an artist?

[Ajax]

This is so ridiculous. I mean and what about those critics we always read such as: “the movie is s*** but the acting will worth your money “ “the script is a disaster but her acting saved the movie” “only This actress would have been able to define those feelings” “such a bad song but her interpretation kills it”

Interpreting something splash your face of artistry ☺️

[PuraVida]

"An interpretation is not a piece of art..."

 

I guess we can just say "screw you" to all interpretive dancers then.

 

First of all, as I said, I don't see calling people performers and not artists when it applies is a "screw you". Not at all, and I'm sorry others seem to feel that way. Performers can be beautiful, emotional, talented, entertaining, and so on. Like I said, it's not a dirty word.

 

I'm not really familiar with the dancing world, but I would say the artist(s) is the one(s) who created the moves/choreography. That's what little ol' me here believes! Sue me, folks. If a dancer is doing a dance they choreographed, or is doing free-form, in-the-moment dancing (not sure the proper terminology) then I believe that is also art.

[PuraVida]

What about songwriters who write specifically for an artist. They have a vision that they feel only one voice can bring to life. How is the vocalist not an artist?

 

In my view, that is a case of an artist wanting the best possible performer for their work. That's natural and very understandable, IMO. But the fact is, ultimately, the piece of art can exist and be performed without any one given vocalist. It doesn't by definition need a particular one. It doesn't take away from the fact that the ideas are still coming from the head of the artist, not the performer.

 

You hear it over and over again with script writers or songwriters...they may write something with someone in mind to play it, but often times that person turns it down or the teams turn it down. And so what? Those movies go on to get made and those songs go on to get sung and audiences still appreciate them.

[ryba]

Oh she said she's an artist (5:39) Told Ya! She's an artist

 

https://youtu.be/vni2LGDqPZg

you heard it people! She said it!

[LukeD]

Exactly. His message is more than disrespectful. If a fan thinks she's lazy and disrespectful, what the hell are they doing here? Seriously.

Imagine accusing a widow of disrespect, cause she accepted to record few songs she was offered that addressed her husband's death. And did not write them herself.

 

I only hope the moderators have seen this.

Edited June 8, 2020 at 06:53 PM by LukeD

[LukeD]

Well we should be used to it now.

To be honest I have never read such comment in here. I did not see it coming at all.

[Ajax]

The fact that you did not see it coming is also typical. That s the way those kind of hideous comments gets to arrive here from him from time to time. He is like our weird, old and mean uncle we have to endure at every family dinner and no one is paying attention to, as we developed a kind of empathy clemency toward him.

 

Sorry for the digression 😊

[SuperLove4Celine]

The fact that you did not see it coming is also typical. That s the way those kind of hideous comments gets to arrive here from him from time to time. He is like our weird, old and mean uncle we have to endure at every family dinner and no one is paying attention to, as we developed a kind of empathy clemency toward him.

 

Sorry for the digression 😊

 

Awwww!!! You think of me as family?! I’m touched! Moved, actually!

[Ajax]

Virtual one yes more or less 😚😁

[maki_Dion-er]

I'm laughing at this discussion.

 

Celine's not an artist. I've read a lot of weird things on this forum and this is one that's at the top.

 

So, Celine is just a performer in the eyes of a few here. Fine. That still puts her under the umbrella of the performing ARTS. Performing is an art, therefore she's an artist. Period.

 

 

Remember when many were unhappy because she changed the way she sang PQTME and thought she was butchering it? Or how about the beautiful and completely different way she sang it at the end of the Ottawa show in 2019? She wasn't being directed there, she chose to interpret the song in these different ways because she was moved to do so and both interpretations gave the same song a totally different life. This is just one song example.

 

How about the fact that Celine has talked about keeping a notepad next to her bed to write down lyrics that come to her. But the thing is she's said before that she doesn't feel comfortable singing songs she thinks up. She's still creating lyrics that are born from her imagination, so if we go by the definition of those arguing she isn't an artist then this makes her an artist, even if she chooses not to sing them.

Edited June 8, 2020 at 09:26 PM by maki_Dion-er

[ryba]

I think the Celine bashing results pretty much from a general frustration among fans due to her absolute passiveness and desinterest towards her loyal fanbase. No real fan would want to seriously offend her in any way. Edited June 8, 2020 at 09:44 PM by ryba

[CelinesDIVO5]

I think the Celine bashing results pretty much from a general frustration among fans due to her absolute passiveness and desinterest towards her loyal fanbase. No real fan would seriously want to seriously offend her in any way.

 

Passive and disinterest toward her fans?! You mean the woman who stops 98% of every time she leaves a hotel or venue to say hello, take photos and sign autographs? This comment is just as bad as those accusing her of not being an artist.