The gay issues thread

[bgold50]

I couldn't resist responding to the bible thumpers from a few pages back. This is a letter that was written to a US radio "personality" (or lack of one, really) named Dr. Laura. In my opinion, she was probably a proctologist, and not a psychiatrist. She was very anti-gay, and very vocal about it. This letter is a wonderful response to all of her rantings and is also a great response to those who posted here saying that the bible says that homosexuality is a sin. Read on......

 

Dear Dr. Laura,

 

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

 

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

 

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

 

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

 

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

 

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

 

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

 

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear prescription glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

 

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

[VanMerlin]

Thank you, bgold50. That's beautiful!!

[celinedionsfan]

bgold50, excellent post ... so many of the right wing conservative Christians, regardless of denomination, tend to focus on the Old Testament while disregarding the New Testament ... Christians are supposed to be Followers of Christ ... that iswhat the word Christian is supposed to mean. Christ said "Love one another as I have loved you" ... "Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone" ... "Judge not lest you be judged" ... I wonder how many of those Bible quoting Christians have bothered to really read the New Testament.

I have read this thread with interest because 34 days ago, my partner passed away. She and I were together for almost 5 years. The last song we listened to together was Celine singing My Heart Will Go On during The View February 25.

[cdclore]

2 questions:

 

1.What do you think about gays?

 

2.Did you ever have a gay friend or still have it?How is/was it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1.) What do I think about gays? I'm bisexual and very much into girls as well as a few guys on the side and my step-brother is gay and lives in San Francisco with this husband, if those facts tell you anything.

 

2.) I used to have quite a few gay friends, mostly guys but over time we've drifted. I've only ever known one lesbian but shes now graduated from my college and lives hours away. For a while, I dated a bisexual guy (which was REALLY interesting to say the least).

 

So I guess you could say I'm very PRO gay!

[Célinefull]

haha, I have read that before, Dr Laura is a just a moron, vilifying people completely contradticts religion.

[mazceline]

Yes i have to agree with the above

[Célinefull]

of course you do :)

[Celine's Wife]

[Célinefull]

(it's because she's smart that she agrees with me)

[babymonkey]

Life is about tolerance. Mutual respect and understanding and in truth I see very little of that here. You vilify homophobes yet claim to be tolerant yourselves? That is their belief and they are entitled to it whether they are right or not. A person is a person, no matter what their beliefs or gender or race or whatever it might be.

 

People bring up the issue of religion.... here is another example of intolerance to other people's beliefs that has been displayed here. The bible is open to interpretation as each individual sees fit (that includes believing every word written in it) and if someone chooses to believe that homosexuality is wrong because of what they read there, that again is their entitlement.

 

Persectuting someone for how they choose to live their life is wrong, whether that be homosexuals and homophobes as is relevant to this topic, or whether it be their religion or customs.

 

In my own opinion I see homosexuals as no different. I have very good friends who are gay, I also know of a few absolutely dispicable people, who I would never choose to be friends with, who are gay. Broad sweeping statements like "Gays are brilliant and fun and kind and honest and make the best friends" are just another example of pigeonholing people based on their beliefs.

[Célinefull]

Life is about tolerance. Mutual respect and understanding and in truth I see very little of that here. You vilify homophobes yet claim to be tolerant yourselves? That is their belief and they are entitled to it whether they are right or not. A person is a person, no matter what their beliefs or gender or race or whatever it might be.

 

People bring up the issue of religion.... here is another example of intolerance to other people's beliefs that has been displayed here. The bible is open to interpretation as each individual sees fit (that includes believing every word written in it) and if someone chooses to believe that homosexuality is wrong because of what they read there, that again is their entitlement.

 

Persectuting someone for how they choose to live their life is wrong, whether that be homosexuals and homophobes as is relevant to this topic, or whether it be their religion or customs.

 

In my own opinion I see homosexuals as no different. I have very good friends who are gay, I also know of a few absolutely dispicable people, who I would never choose to be friends with, who are gay. Broad sweeping statements like "Gays are brilliant and fun and kind and honest and make the best friends" are just another example of pigeonholing people based on their beliefs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The point is, not that people are not entitled to their opinion, but that they try and force it onto other people. Just look at Bush and his stopping of gay marriage in USA and also everything that happened and still happens to gay people and people living with hiv/aids in the USA.

 

Also, isn't the end of your post contradicting the rest of it? Your saying that people who believe generalised stereotypes are wrong and only serve to perpetuate them..but you said that everyone has a right to his or her opinion and shame on us for not thinking as tolerably as you? Did you not?

[babymonkey]

The point is, not that people are not entitled to their opinion, but that they try and force it onto other people. Just look at Bush and his stopping of gay marriage in USA and also everything that happened and still happens to gay people and people living with hiv/aids in the USA.

 

Also, isn't the end of your post contradicting the rest of it? Your saying that people who believe generalised stereotypes are wrong and only serve to perpetuate them..but you said that everyone has a right to his or her opinion and shame on us for not thinking as tolerably as you? Did you not?

 

Guess it could be seen as somewhat contradictory depending on how you take it. What I'm saying is that people here are not as tolerant as they like to think they are and that they too have some ingrained predjudices, whether they be positive or negative. What I'm really not saying is that people have to believe everything that I tell them from my high horse. It's just a platform for me.... I graduated from a soapbox on the corner.

 

In what way are people trying to force their beliefs on people? I saw a few websites that people quoted from and a couple of verses from the bible. Were people being forced to read them? Were they tied, Clockwork Orange style, to their computer and forced to read somebodies rantings?

 

As for how gays are treated in America, get over it. They are just the latest in a long line of hated. First there was the native Americans, then the blacks, then the Irish, then the Jews, then the Mexicans, then the Muslims.... or whatever order it went in. People will always have predjudices and they will always take it out on a minority, and lets face it, gays are easy pickings.... it's one of the last taboos I guess. Fight for equality but don't expect it to come easily. It never does.

Edited April 14, 2006 at 07:52 PM by babymonkey

[mazceline]

At the end of the day, you believe what you want about religion, cause no one really knows the truth, so believe in what will help you through your time, as for people hating gay people, who cares at least we have found a soul mate, and no one can take that away

 

" i am what i am, am what i am, need no excuses, its my world"

 

Its off an old song, but how true it is...

Edited April 15, 2006 at 06:13 AM by mazceline

[Célinefull]

As for how gays are treated in America, get over it. They are just the latest in a long line of hated. First there was the native Americans, then the blacks, then the Irish, then the Jews, then the Mexicans, then the Muslims.... or whatever order it went in. People will always have predjudices and they will always take it out on a minority, and lets face it, gays are easy pickings.... it's one of the last taboos I guess. Fight for equality but don't expect it to come easily. It never does.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

lol, get over it? That's the way to make a convincing point! Bravo.

 

In what way are people trying to force their beliefs on people? I saw a few websites that people quoted from and a couple of verses from the bible. Were people being forced to read them? Were they tied, Clockwork Orange style, to their computer and forced to read somebodies rantings?

 

I am not talking about this forum, I'm talking about the real world, and yes, we are being forced to believe other peoples views, we are supposed to live in secular societies, meaning that religion and the law have no place together, yet Australia and the USA have laws against homosexual unions, and those laws are based souly on religious convictions.

Edited April 15, 2006 at 07:56 AM by Célinefull

[Celine's Wife]

I'm over it already

[mazceline]

me too lets leave the young that have not experienced it to argue pointless views, celinefull and miss dion, we know that nothing matters we aint gonna change FULLSTOP

[Célinefull]

me too lets leave the young that have not experienced it to argue pointless views, celinefull and miss dion, we know that nothing matters we aint gonna change FULLSTOP

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, as always you are right Marie.

[mazceline]

its not that its just im older, and been round the block a bit,

[Célinefull]

yeah, I know, Cathy told me.

[mazceline]

Baby monkey

 

 

 

i would like to ask are you gay?

[Celine's Wife]

yeah, I know, Cathy told me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Célinefull]

haha

[disadiva]

2 questions:

 

1.What do you think about gays?

 

2.Did you ever have a gay friend or still have it?How is/was it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really like gay people and i know some guys are so sweet like best girlfriends.

[babymonkey]

Baby monkey

 

 

 

i would like to ask are you gay?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I'm not gay.

 

lol, get over it? That's the way to make a convincing point! Bravo.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wasn't using "get over it" to make a point, I was just stating what I felt on the matter and I do think that I have made a reasonably convincing argument besides that. What I have said is true, prejudice is always going to be here. It always has been, if it's not gay people, it's the mentally ill, if not them then someone else who is slightly different to what is seen as being normal.

 

me too lets leave the young that have not experienced it to argue pointless views, celinefull and miss dion, we know that nothing matters we aint gonna change FULLSTOP

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I assume you are referring to me in this statement? What have I not experienced? Prejudice? Trust me, I have crammed a lot of living into my 23 years. I have more life experience than a lot of people twice my age. Living as a minority in what is still a backward country, I have been subjected to quite a bit of descrimination is just about every walk of life. I know things will never change, but a lot of people here don't see that so this discussion is far from pointless, it is helping people to understand how this world works and how people see each other.

 

Dismissing people because of their age is something that a lot of people regret doing. Treat people on their merits don't allow your view to be clouded because I'm 5 years younger than you. Ageism is just another form of discrimination.

[VanMerlin]

Babymonkey, I agree with a great many things you say. Intolerance and prejudice have always been, will always be, and are human traits, but to just say "Get over it" is the same as saying, "yeah well, it happens, so what?" That is the same as accepting the behaviours inspired by hatred and standing by, doing nothing. We've come a long way on certain issues and and things DO change, but nothing is ever changed by saying, "get over it." That sounds like giving up.

 

I don't think we're questioning peoples' beliefs here, as much as we are questioning the 'actions' people take based on their opinions. As far as I'm concerned, people can believe whatever they want, but as soon as they start taking those beliefs and restricting human freedoms (the right to marriage), preaching that everyone should believe the same things or they're "dead wrong" and deserve to be verbally abused, going into people's lives and forcing them to change their beliefs (missionaries) etc, that is where I have a problem. Live and let live. Unless you're hurting someone, do what you want, live as you want. If someone wants to be a homophobe, fine, but let homosexuals live as they want and have all the rights everyone else has. If you see discrimination occuring around you, don't stand by and do nothing and say, "get over it, it'll never change".

 

But what you said about ageism...that made me smile and say, "YEAH!!!" However, I think mazceline was referring to the fact that you haven't experienced 'homosexual' prejudice and, because of that, you don't understand the entire discussion...which is fair. Every kind of prejudice is different in some ways and no matter what we experience, we can never truly know what it's like to live someone else's life. We can only strive to be empathetic and compassionate.

Edited April 15, 2006 at 05:16 PM by VanMerlin

[babymonkey]

Babymonkey, I agree with a great many things you say. Intolerance and prejudice have always been, will always be, and are human traits, but to just say "Get over it" is the same as saying, "yeah well, it happens, so what?" That is the same as accepting the behaviours inspired by hatred and standing by, doing nothing. We've come a long way on certain issues and and things DO change, but nothing is ever changed by saying, "get over it." That sounds like giving up.

 

I don't think we're questioning peoples' beliefs here, as much as we are questioning the 'actions' people take based on their opinions. As far as I'm concerned, people can believe whatever they want, but as soon as they start taking those beliefs and restricting human freedoms (the right to marriage), preaching that everyone should believe the same things or they're "dead wrong" and deserve to be verbally abused, going into people's lives and forcing them to change their beliefs (missionaries) etc, that is where I have a problem. Live and let live. Unless you're hurting someone, do what you want, live as you want. If someone wants to be a homophobe, fine, but let homosexuals live as they want and have all the rights everyone else has. If you see discrimination occuring around you, don't stand by and do nothing and say, "get over it, it'll never change".

 

But what you said about ageism...that made me smile and say, "YEAH!!!" However, I think mazceline was referring to the fact that you haven't experienced 'homosexual' prejudice and, because of that, you don't understand the entire discussion...which is fair. Every kind of prejudice is different in some ways and no matter what we experience, we can never truly know what it's like to live someone else's life. We can only strive to be empathetic and compassionate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now that's an answer! Ok, I wont retract my "get over it" statement as such because I still believe it but maybe it wasn't the best way to express my thoughts on the matter. Prejudice is a part of life. If you teach yourself not to be upset by it, but still fight it, you become a stronger person for it.

[VanMerlin]

Well said, babymonkey. I believe I've found another person I like on this forum. It's been a pleasure talking with you.

[mazceline]

sorry baby monkey, until you are ever in a situation like many of us who ARE gay get in then your comments are offensive

[Célinefull]

Well said, babymonkey. I believe I've found another person I like on this forum. It's been a pleasure talking with you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ah God, not you..leave me one thread please!!

[mazceline]

if i offend i shall not follow your messages