Tensions between Vito Luprano and Celine/René

[Ukrfan]

This is all nice but individual good songs do not change what I said. I love 'In Some Small Way' and 'My Precious One'. Also 'Come To Me' is a gem. Every Celine album has songs I absolutely love. However, my point still stands that Miracle was rushed in the sense that it included leftovers and recycled songs, instead of being fully developed as an album of new recordings. This was also the second year in a row she would do that. Furthermore, her voice does not sound great in 'In Some Small Way'. It is somewhat dry and tired. Nothing like her 1998/1999 recordings that were featured in the album, 'Brahms' Lullaby' and 'The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face'.

 

I also like several tracks on Taking Chances, but the album is objectively a mixed bag of modern/edgy pop/rock songs and conventional ballads that killed the album purpose. You either take chances or you play it safe. For me the songs that do not fit Taking Chances were New Dawn, A Song For You, A World To Believe In, Right Next To The Right One, and maybe Skies of L.A. as well. Imagine a track-list without them, and add the bonus songs which IMO were better suited for the album. This is what you get:

 

01.Taking Chances

02.Alone

03.Eyes On Me

04.My Love

05.Shadow Of Love

06.Surprise Surprise

07.This Time

08.There Comes A Time

09.Can't Fight The Feeling

10.I Got Nothing Left

11.Fade Away

12.That's Just The Woman In Me

13.Map To My Heart

14.The Reason I Go On

 

To me this track-list is far more cohesive and consistent, clearly aligning with the album purpose.

 

Kinda agree, though I actually like those songs. But yeah, they should have been bonuses, and MTMH and TRIGO should have been the main tracks.

[smw]

Vito comes off as quite narcissistic using strong language to negatively describe everything in Celine's career before and after him.

 

I also think Rene had certain narcissistic qualities which would explain the clash between the two.

 

I agree with all points regarding her career:

 

- ANDHC was an excellent comeback album that needed better support especially in terms of its singles. This would have ensured longevity.

- OH was a rushed project of ANDHC rejects. Also her last album to feature excellent vocals.

- Miracle was rushed as well, not only it included recycled songs, but it was also the first Celine studio album to feature average vocals.

- A New Day...Live in Las Vegas (album) should have never been released. She was in such poor vocal condition.

- Taking Chances was a mixed bag including somewhat edgy songs and very conventional ones, perfectly reflecting her 00s identity crisis.

- This crisis was also evidenced in LMBTL, another mixed bag flirting with the modern and the old-fashioned. The vocals were subpar for the first time.

- Courage was a clear step forward in terms of the material BUT the vocals/enunciation/phrasing/production were subpar as well which killed the album.

 

So after ANDHC all recordings took away qualities that had made Celine an international superstar in the 90s. These were:

 

1) Clear Album Direction

2) Consistent Marketing & Promotion

3) Careful Production

4) Crystal Clear Vocals!

 

Add piracy and agism to the list and this is how you go from selling 32.000.000 copies to selling 700.000.

 

Totally agree!

 

I wonder if the pronunciation on "Courage" (most of which I actually don't mind) was partially due to early signs of her illness?

 

OH I prefer very much over ANDHC as a whole. I only listen to select tracks from the latter. OH, I still never skip any of the songs on it. To me, it's fabulous from start to finish. I love that you and I got to see her sing LIAWN live together!

 

TC is a rather solid album. I do like all of the songs on the album, though I don't often listen to it from start to finish. But I do often revisit it and listen to whatever tracks are striking my mood at the time. SHADOW OF LOVE is in a constant rotation in my ears.

 

I don't feel MIRACLE was rushed…I just don't think the songs recorded specifically for the album were done when her voice was in its best shape, with the exceptions of MY PRECIOUS ONE and IN SOME SMALL WAY…which I think are both among some of her best work. COME TO ME is not so bad either.

 

LMBTL…they should have just scrapped the entire Vegas half of the concept. Although, I do like the studio version of OPEN ARMS, and would have welcomed that on the track list. And then maybe 3 or 4 more originals to add. I love all of the new tracks. ALWAYS BE YOUR GIRL, isn't something that I can personally relate to, but I do think her vocals on the song are lovely to listen to. And I much prefer the remixed version of UNFINISHED SONGS over the version used for the movie credits. I think it was a terrible shame of Sony to intentionally not promote LMBTL as an official single. It was a modern, mid tempo ballad, and her vocals sounded stellar. Shoutouts for LMBTL, SLS, TY, DKL and SYS. My top 5 from the album in no particular order. The Vegas songs would have been fine as a separate EP to be released as she concluded her run in 2019. Whatever she originally recorded could have been compiled into a 5-7 track collection.

 

I've wondered about this too.... if her vocals were impacted far earlier than we ever realized. I wonder if Celine has been thinking about that as well. Because her voice definitely made some big changes. She could still hit some impressive notes --- but the fluidity and tone of her vocals really diminished quite a bit. She still sounded wonderful, of course. But it was just a different sound.

 

And the Vegas songs were actually my favorites on the LMBTL album. I think if they had gone more of that route, the album would have reached a bigger audience. It would have made more sense to Celine's image -- and the Barbra Streisand/Josh Groban/Michael Buble fans would've ate it up. She could have released a music video for Overjoyed with Stevie Wonder, and it would've gotten noticed. Not to be some huge smash single but just two legends singing together. But I know we're divided as fans when it comes to the kinds of songs she records.

 

I am glad that she got to have some fun in the studio and record more modern-sounding songs, even if they didn't get as much attention. The Sia / Adele era was hard for many of us over the past decade. Ashes was a return to form but then that mostly went out the window with Courage.

Edited September 22, 2023 at 06:15 PM by smw

[Állex Sodi]

 

And the Vegas songs were actually my favorites on the LMBTL album. I think if they had gone more of that route, the album would have reached a bigger audience. It would have made more sense to Celine's image -- and the Barbra Streisand/Josh Groban/Michael Buble fans would've ate it up. She could have released a music video for Overjoyed with Stevie Wonder, and it would've gotten noticed. Not to be some huge smash single but just two legends singing together. But I know we're divided as fans when it comes to the kinds of songs she records.

 

 

I think the same!

 

Most fans seems to enjoy more the pop part of the album, I believe that’s mainly because of this desire we have to see Celine on top of the charts again. Every time she releases a more generic pop song fans get excited. But, for me, the second half of the album is way more consistent, it suits her very well. At Seventeen’ might be one of her the best recordings, so emotional interpretation, and without vocal acrobatics.

 

The pop part, though, is too generic. It could be Celine or anyone else sing and it wouldn’t make a difference. It’s a waste of her interpretation brilliance.

[ryba]

It seems like Celine didn’t feel like putting too much effort into giving cristal clear vocals on many of the new songs. Maybe it was too demanding for her or she was too lazy, therefore she opted for the karaoke way of singing.

[smw]

 

 

I think the same!

 

Most fans seems to enjoy more the pop part of the album, I believe that’s mainly because of this desire we have to see Celine on top of the charts again. Every time she releases a more generic pop song fans get excited. But, for me, the second half of the album is way more consistent, it suits her very well. At Seventeen’ might be one of her the best recordings, so emotional interpretation, and without vocal acrobatics.

 

The pop part, though, is too generic. It could be Celine or anyone else sing and it wouldn’t make a difference. It’s a waste of her interpretation brilliance.

 

Exactly.

 

There’s a timeless, classic quality to these songs. Some fans call them dated and old fashioned but the truth is they’ll be the ones that stand the test of time vs the songs that were trendy 10, 15 years ago. Real instruments, quality lyrics, etc. They’re up to par with Celine Dion’s voice. A higher caliber. Whereas the trendier songs could’ve been given to any number of pop singers out there and fade with time.

 

I wish they stuck with the classic Vegas songs theme for that album and included more Herbie Hancock, Frank Sinatra, and Ella Fitzgerald type of songs. These are the gems that put her up there with the other greats like Barbra, Judy, and Ella. Celine’s a legend and should never, in my opinion, try to be Sia or Adele.

 

Edited September 22, 2023 at 07:20 PM by smw

[CelinesDIVO5]

 

 

I think the same!

 

Most fans seems to enjoy more the pop part of the album, I believe that’s mainly because of this desire we have to see Celine on top of the charts again. Every time she releases a more generic pop song fans get excited. But, for me, the second half of the album is way more consistent, it suits her very well. At Seventeen’ might be one of her the best recordings, so emotional interpretation, and without vocal acrobatics.

 

The pop part, though, is too generic. It could be Celine or anyone else sing and it wouldn’t make a difference. It’s a waste of her interpretation brilliance.

 

See, I think she takes those pop songs and turns them into something that nobody else could. I don’t think anyone else could have sang LMBTL or SLS or even SYS the way Celine did. She’s always elevated pop music and that’s why I enjoy her more contemporary pop songs so much.

Edited September 22, 2023 at 07:26 PM by CelinesDIVO5

[idroveallnight]

Yeah…that sounds not right lol

 

yes, it happened and that group of fans posted the photo afterwards. I think Salla was among them.

[Abodi2002]

Speaking of miracle, does anybody know when a lot of the songs were actually recorded for that?

[GoldenLeaf]

 

 

See, I think she takes those pop songs and turns them into something that nobody else could. I don’t think anyone else could have sang LMBTL or SLS or even SYS the way Celine did. She’s always elevated pop music and that’s why I enjoy her more contemporary pop songs so much.

I totally agree!!! The same goes for "I Drove All Night", I was listening to Roy Orbison and Cyndi Lauper versions the other day and I was like "OMG Celine uplifted this song to another level with her interpretation, she really brought an unique flavor into this song".

Edited September 23, 2023 at 03:50 AM by GoldenLeaf

[rfkavanagh]

I can't believe how many of you would have intentionally relegated Céline right into "heritage artist" territory in her 40s rather than wanting her to continue being a relevant and contemporary artist. A Rod Stewart Songbook-type album or standards or Broadway or whatever - these are HORRIFYING thoughts for me. Save that for when she can no longer compete and needs a long-term soft-landing exit strategy for her career longevity. Sony and René had already pushed her career in that direction to the point where she's never got the same level of credit for being a viable "current" artist as her contemporaries, but no need to push her through that door and lock it behind her just yet.

 

Now, whether you think the contemporary material has been up to the right standard or not is a different question...

[idroveallnight]

Rene begging fans to meet Celine? Sounds strange?!

 

Did I say begging? He asked them and they of course said yes.

[idroveallnight]

I can't believe how many of you would have intentionally relegated Céline right into "heritage artist" territory in her 40s rather than wanting her to continue being a relevant and contemporary artist. A Rod Stewart Songbook-type album or standards or Broadway or whatever - these are HORRIFYING thoughts for me. Save that for when she can no longer compete and needs a long-term soft-landing exit strategy for her career longevity. Sony and René had already pushed her career in that direction to the point where she's never got the same level of credit for being a viable "current" artist as her contemporaries, but no need to push her through that door and lock it behind her just yet.

 

Now, whether you think the contemporary material has been up to the right standard or not is a different question...

 

I think many people don’t realize that Britney and Adele started their residencies in Vegas at the same age and stage of their careers that Celine did. Adele will probably have a similar career progression as Celine with maybe a bit more commercial success due to social media and her coolness. But at the end of the day, Celine has had a pretty damn amazing career. I think many of us just want to acknowledge the missed opportunities because most of the public just equates her with Titanic and we know she is so much more than that.

[Davey84]

Have you guys hear Kylie Minogue's new album "Tension" ? It's the perfect definition of a comeback album. Kylie's not settling into old age and the songs on her album are cohesives, currents and fresh without being immatures and ridiculous. Celine should take notes.

I listened to the album yesterday, and it's nice, but not that memorable. No other song reaches the catchiness of Padam.

 

Every album of Kylie is middle of the road, nothing the matter pop. Which is OK, but I would get bored if I was a massive Kylie fan. I am happy Celine has offered something new and different with each album.

 

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk

 

 

[ryba]

 

 

Did I say begging? He asked them and they of course said yes.

I never heard about this. Can you give more details? Which year was it and why was she depressed?

[Nmj]

 

 

Did I say begging? He asked them and they of course said yes.

 

I was exaggerating, however I still find it hard to believe. Now a scenario where fans may have seen Rene and asked him if they could meet Celine and him agreeing is something I could believe easily.

[Nmj]

I can't believe how many of you would have intentionally relegated Céline right into "heritage artist" territory in her 40s rather than wanting her to continue being a relevant and contemporary artist. A Rod Stewart Songbook-type album or standards or Broadway or whatever - these are HORRIFYING thoughts for me. Save that for when she can no longer compete and needs a long-term soft-landing exit strategy for her career longevity. Sony and René had already pushed her career in that direction to the point where she's never got the same level of credit for being a viable "current" artist as her contemporaries, but no need to push her through that door and lock it behind her just yet.

 

Now, whether you think the contemporary material has been up to the right standard or not is a different question...

 

I agree.

 

I don’t think Celine should’ve been chasing modern music for a hit, instead I think Celine should’ve stuck with her signature recipe that got her success. If Celine would’ve not tried to sound like Sia or Adele and instead kept her clear vocals and kept doing mid-tempo songs like “reveal” or ballads like “I Surrender” with a modern production she would’ve had more success in my opinion. I think “Ashes” is the closest she’s done to her signature sound in recent years and it probably is her most successful post “One Heart” album, song.

 

I want Celine to sound like Celine, Crystal clear vocals… no auto tune, no raspiness etc. and I think the average fan would’ve responded better.

 

 

[AdrienneM]

I just can’t get over the amount of people in this thread who say her vocals on TC and LMBTL were subpar or even bad… Both albums (but Taking Chances SPECIFICALLY) feature incredible vocals, and she did things vocally on Taking Chances that she quite literally couldn’t do in studio or live back in the 90s. I mean the studio sessions of Map to My Heart alone prove that she was in phenomenal voice during the production of that album.

[idroveallnight]

Her vocals during the entire TC tour were phenomenal. Too bad we didn’t have smartphones then.

[stone]

I listened to the album yesterday, and it's nice, but not that memorable. No other song reaches the catchiness of Padam.

 

Every album of Kylie is middle of the road, nothing the matter pop. Which is OK, but I would get bored if I was a massive Kylie fan. I am happy Celine has offered something new and different with each album.

 

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk

 

I completely disagree…I’ve listened to Tension in its entirety 5 times already since yesterday and absolutely love it. Hold On To Now is my favorite track and every song is single worthy imo.

[stone]

I listened to the album yesterday, and it's nice, but not that memorable. No other song reaches the catchiness of Padam.

 

Every album of Kylie is middle of the road, nothing the matter pop. Which is OK, but I would get bored if I was a massive Kylie fan. I am happy Celine has offered something new and different with each album.

 

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G781B met Tapatalk

 

Also Kylie’s Fever and Body Language is like Celine’s FIY and LTAL and Light Years is her COML. Funny that the colors of the album cover is similar to Celine’s mirror albums I mentioned now that I think of it!

[idroveallnight]

I personally think we’ve gotten the same sound from TC, LMBTL, and Courage. OH seemed to be the bridge between classic Celine and modern Celine.

[LukeD]

I just can't get over the amount of people in this thread who say her vocals on TC and LMBTL were subpar or even bad… Both albums (but Taking Chances SPECIFICALLY) feature incredible vocals, and she did things vocally on Taking Chances that she quite literally couldn't do in studio or live back in the 90s. I mean the studio sessions of Map to My Heart alone prove that she was in phenomenal voice during the production of that album.

I think we need to differentiate between tone and technique. I agree with you that the vocals (technique-wise) on TC were great and even better than some of her 90s recordings as she went higher and lower with ease. This was also demonstrated in the TCWT. However, I was referring the the tone. Starting from 1 Fille&4 Types, and then Miracle and continuing with D'elles and Taking Chances her voice sounded dry. It had lost that crystal clear quality. I also felt that her tone in Sans Attendre improved massively. She was restful and I could tell. In terms of LMBTL, the belting was fine, but the extensive use of 'bedroom' voice reduced the quality of the recordings IMO.

 

Hope I make sense!

Edited September 24, 2023 at 10:41 AM by LukeD

[LukeD]

Her vocals during the entire TC tour were phenomenal. Too bad we didn’t have smartphones then.

She sounded phenomenal at the beginning of the tour. Her voice was rather tired, nasal and dry in the Boston recording we received as DVD.

 

The African leg of the tour >>> anything else she did in 2008/2009.

[Ukrfan]

She sounded phenomenal at the beginning of the tour. Her voice was rather tired, nasal and dry in the Boston recording we received as DVD.

 

The African leg of the tour >>> anything else she did in 2008/2009.

 

I think she was also good in Asia? But she got tired by the time she reached Europe.

[smw]

I was reflecting on how Celine would make all her interviews focused on motherhood once she returned in 2002 — and kept it up for pretty much every album promotion until LMBTL if not longer. I wonder if she did this because she felt like she was a bit controlled by her career (and Rene) in the 80s and 90s. And this was her way of taking back the steering wheel of her life a bit and controlling the narrative once she made her comeback.

 

Anytime an interviewer would try to ask her career-based questions, she’d drive the convo back to motherhood. She seemed to not like her life/identity to be solely about her career, which is understandable. But she really avoided questions pertaining to her career more than other performers. She’d make exceptions for truly special projects like D’eux.

 

She’s still like that to this day. She doesn’t seem driven to tell us stories about recording songs, albums, etc. Or sharing rarities. It’s all about her family life — and of course right now she’s focused on getting better. I think maybe she felt like her career was taking up too much space of her life. She clearly loves to sing and be onstage… but all the extra stuff not so much.

 

Which is why a good team would help take care of that for her. Give us rarities and encourage her to give us more glimpses into career highlights, etc.

[comingback]

I woke up this morning and what did I see on MTV: the IACBTMN video. 🙂 ❤️

Celine is a legend and I hope she will come back one day.

Edited September 24, 2023 at 04:37 PM by comingback

[LukeD]

I was reflecting on how Celine would make all her interviews focused on motherhood once she returned in 2002 — and kept it up for pretty much every album promotion until LMBTL if not longer. I wonder if she did this because she felt like she was a bit controlled by her career (and Rene) in the 80s and 90s. And this was her way of taking back the steering wheel of her life a bit and controlling the narrative once she made her comeback.

 

Anytime an interviewer would try to ask her career-based questions, she'd drive the convo back to motherhood. She seemed to not like her life/identity to be solely about her career, which is understandable. But she really avoided questions pertaining to her career more than other performers. She'd make exceptions for truly special projects like D'eux.

 

She's still like that to this day. She doesn't seem driven to tell us stories about recording songs, albums, etc. Or sharing rarities. It's all about her family life — and of course right now she's focused on getting better. I think maybe she felt like her career was taking up too much space of her life. She clearly loves to sing and be onstage… but all the extra stuff not so much.

 

Which is why a good team would help take care of that for her. Give us rarities and encourage her to give us more glimpses into career highlights, etc.

To me the emphasis on motherhood/family was all a marketing strategy. The point was to appeal to a conservative audience who adhered to traditional values. It had nothing to do with Celine trying to break free from Rene's control. If anything, I believe Rene was behind the focus of her interviews. The problem is that they lost balance and ''Celine-the-mother'' progressively overshadowed ''Celine-the-singer'' in TV interviews. I personally grew tired of the baby-talk really quickly.

[smw]

To me the emphasis on motherhood/family was all a marketing strategy. The point was to appeal to a conservative audience who adhered to traditional values. It had nothing to do with Celine trying to break free from Rene's control. If anything, I believe Rene was behind the focus of her interviews. The problem is that they lost balance and ''Celine-the-mother'' progressively overshadowed ''Celine-the-singer'' in TV interviews. I personally grew tired of the baby-talk really quickly.

 

I don’t know… while I’m sure marketing had something to do with it to some degree in the early days of her comeback (and the Miracle era, of course), looking back at her interviews, she often drives the narrative to motherhood. And I do think it has something to do with her being/feeling in control. During the TC era in particular.

 

Edited September 24, 2023 at 04:53 PM by smw

[ryba]

I was reflecting on how Celine would make all her interviews focused on motherhood once she returned in 2002 — and kept it up for pretty much every album promotion until LMBTL if not longer. I wonder if she did this because she felt like she was a bit controlled by her career (and Rene) in the 80s and 90s. And this was her way of taking back the steering wheel of her life a bit and controlling the narrative once she made her comeback.

 

Anytime an interviewer would try to ask her career-based questions, she'd drive the convo back to motherhood. She seemed to not like her life/identity to be solely about her career, which is understandable. But she really avoided questions pertaining to her career more than other performers. She'd make exceptions for truly special projects like D'eux.

 

She's still like that to this day. She doesn't seem driven to tell us stories about recording songs, albums, etc. Or sharing rarities. It's all about her family life — and of course right now she's focused on getting better. I think maybe she felt like her career was taking up too much space of her life. She clearly loves to sing and be onstage… but all the extra stuff not so much.

 

Which is why a good team would help take care of that for her. Give us rarities and encourage her to give us more glimpses into career highlights, etc.

I think the reason for that is that she was working intensively since she was 14 years old, and by the time she was 30 she was exhausted. She achieved everything, but she felt empty inside, and motherhood gave her a true purpose, and that's what she wanted to shout out into the world cause it made her truly happy.

[smw]

I think the reason for that is that she was working intensively since she was 14 years old, and by the time she was 30 she was exhausted. She achieved everything, but she felt empty inside, and motherhood gave her a true purpose, and that's what she wanted to shout out into the world cause it made her truly happy.

 

Yeah, I think at her core she ultimately wanted to be a wife and mother more than become one of the greatest singers/performers ever. But she also shared a dream with Rene of building a huge career - I just think that was perhaps more Rene’s dream than Celine’s. I think she wanted to prove to him (and herself) that she could do it, but it wasn’t what was going to fulfill her as a person. And once she relaunched in 2002, it was going to be more on her terms than it was in the 80s and 90s.

 

If Celine had it her way, she would’ve bowed out for a while after FIY to focus on herself and building a family. I think FIY and D’eux was achieving enough success for Celine. But Rene pushed for more projects - which was fantastic for her career but perhaps not what she really wanted.

 

She always talked about being up in the clouds with huge dreams as a teenager - and she climbed down the ladder as she got older. And she was ready for normal, more fulfilling things by the late 90s.

 

Edited September 24, 2023 at 05:24 PM by smw