Gender and sexuality issues

[zoe marie]

One of my good friends is gay and she had this to say

 

"I agree that there are sometimes I wish I could just fall into the "normal" title but there again I wouldn't be happy even though I do try, when I do I end up running a mile away from everyone I love and hold close!!!" - Rebecca

 

So I guess the point to this is that you are who you are and there's nothing you can do to change that even if you wanted to

"Be true to yourself because if you can't who else can?"

 

with regard to Nmj - just as I don't presume that people are one thing rather than many , I wouldn't presume a man is gay just because he is a huge fan of Céline.

Many people have questioned my sexuality because I have a wall dedicated to Céline. I have a boyfriend that I will proably love to the day I die but my second love will always be Céline

Whether you're gay or straight it doesn't matter but how you treat others AND their opinions does!!!

Edited May 22, 2008 at 12:10 AM by zoe marie

[Frida]

Nmj: I told I respect your beliefs and your opinion I was asking how you could know that (and not just hide behind "that's what it says int he bible") without BEING in that situation yourself.. that's impossible..

 

Please take a minute to think about and respond to what Ray said:

 

- to ONLY eat meat one the same day the animal has been killed (or the next day). What's still left on the third day should be burned.

- NOT to wear any clothes which are made from more than one material.

- NOT to eat meat with blood. (steak)

- to KILL people who cheat on their wife. BOTH people must be killed: the woman and the man who cheat.

 

I just think it's a bit hypocritical... Saying that "being gay is a sin!" cause "it says so in the book of worship", but not following the rest of what it says? (not JUST the things listed above). It doesn't make ANY sense...

 

Unless you live by ALL these rules then okay, I understand, but unless you do, you have CHOSEN to think it's a sin, you have CHOSEN this homophobia (it is) and then you can't hide behind the "book of worship says" anymore... You'd have to stand my the bible or the koran 100%..

 

 

 

 

- to KILL people who cheat on their wife. BOTH people must be killed: the woman and the man who cheat

Let's say I make this my daytime job (volunteer work of coure)... I'd get a call from an upset wife saying her husband cheated on her, and I say "aaw, poor thing, let me just grab my coat and I'll come and kill you ".

When someone asks me WHY I did it I'll just say "it says so in the bible, and the bible doesn't lie "

 

Does that make sense? Don't think so.. it was written a LONG time ago, things have CHANGED, why is it sooo hard for some to accept that? Why do people WANT to think it's a sin, do they WANT to hurt people's feelings? Do they WANT to descriminate people? Do they WANT to inflict even MORE pain, suffering and humiliation to some already horrible lives? I don't get it...

[Krys]

I Knew I was going to get alot of sh*t for saying what i did , But after all this a thread about thoughts and our personal opinions right, I Believe deeply as a Muslim in my faith and that our book of warship in saying these actions are sinful, and to answer the question someone asked How would i know if thats a sin if i'm not a gay man, well i beleive that our books of warship dont lie.. and another answer to someones question...YES i believe thats gays, lesbians, bisexuals are normal people that just so happen to be making a sin...but i deeply respect people of all kinds and there choice is their choice

-Nmj

 

you can go ahead and believe whatever you like. im not stopping you. but the fact that irks me is that you keep rubbing "gays, les and bis are sinners" into our faces. this is not what i call respect. it is insulting. you can keep all these things to yourself, we dont wanna know. and "sin" is a rather harsh word. its just like saying i murdered someone. murder is a sin. is it so wrong to love someone of the same sex? am i taking someone's life by force from them? then we can all be called sinners just because we eat meat. plus, you are dodging the question that Frida asked you

 

Hey Clare,

Thankyou so much for your kind words...that means alot to me...that's just goes to show that gay and lesbians are normal people and I never ever even doubted that they were not normal...I just simply stated the way i believe and thats just me... I think alot of people disagree strongly with me, and the fact that I'm a Male very dedicated to CELINE DION but straight is very rare , she is amazing and I'm straight , but the fact is Celine is just great no matter ones sexual prefrence..... But Honestly, I have absolutly nothing against Gays or Lesbians ...we all are humans first, Right?

-Nmj

 

obviously you havent been hanging round the forum much. being a straight Celine fan is not rare...moreover, you are contradicting yourself. "I never ever even doubted that they were not normal...". first you say the gays are sinners, now you say you dont have anything against us...and we're not talking about being a Celine fan here. Celine is out of the question in this thread. i can say "oh im a Garou fan and im straight as hell cuz he's a guy and im a girl"

[Davey84]

- to KILL people who cheat on their wife. BOTH people must be killed: the woman and the man who cheat

Let's say I make this my daytime job (volunteer work of coure)... I'd get a call from an upset wife saying her husband cheated on her, and I say "aaw, poor thing, let me just grab my coat and I'll come and kill you :)".

When someone asks me WHY I did it I'll just say "it says so in the bible, and the bible doesn't lie :D"

 

 

Does that make sense? Don't think so.. it was written a LONG time ago, things have CHANGED, why is it sooo hard for some to accept that? Why do people WANT to think it's a sin, do they WANT to hurt people's feelings? Do they WANT to descriminate people? Do they WANT to inflict even MORE pain, suffering and humiliation to some already horrible lives? I don't get it...

 

well you know I agree on that it has been written a long ago (duh) but things haven't changed! ever since there are people around there are the gay, the cheating, the killing, the loving, the good, the bad and the ugly... In the time of acient greace gayness wasn't seen as sinful, but a part of life... the bible has been put together in dark times of supression by men with too much power. Who know which gospels have been destroyed at that time! Maybe there was one about free sex, or the right to make your own choices or one about not being allowed to wear a silly hat on thursday, but only on monday what I want to say is... the Bible can't be seen as objective and should not be taken literally

 

 

btw didn't anyone notice that Nmj said : as a Muslim in my faith and that our book of warship

 

I'm not sure if that was a misspelled worship or that she really thinks its a book that tells people to go to war

 

people can think whatever they want or say whatever they want... if this is sin, that's oke for me, cos I never felt happier

[Frida]

Well said Davey! I couldn't agree more

[Davey84]

thank you Frida!!! :D

 

and wasn't it our céline who sang

 

but if we give a little of our love away

maybe meet in the middle

every night and day

if we could hear just a whisper

of what the heart needs to say

it could sure make a difference

in some small...

in some small way

 

[wolfepaw]

There's more at work here than just a "choice". The body is made up of chemicals that interact with each other, including hormones, which drive a lot of emotions and outlooks on life. Sure, some of it is dictated by environment, but some of it is also inherent and you can't do anything about it. And I think to use books of worship to give reasons to hate or exclude people is a terrible thing. As someone said earlier in this topic, the Bible, Koran, etc. are guidelines to living. I have always felt that the Bible was one of the best "historical fiction" novels ever written. The Bible was actually written hundreds of years after Jesus lived and none of those people were there when Jesus was around, so who's to say what actually happened back then. I do not choose to believe in a God who thinks that if you love someone of the same sex, you are evil. What difference does it make who you love? The important thing is that you do "love". I remember years ago when I was in school, there was someone who said that Jews won't get into heaven because they don't believe in Jesus. What makes Christianity right over the other religions around the world? To use religion as a weapon is a terrible thing and unfortunately, it happens over and over again. I don't think God is amused.

 

Gay, straight, what does it matter, as long as you don't hurt or inflict pain. To quote Celine in what is one of my favorite songs (though I know a lot of people don't care for it), "Love is All We Need"!!

[Nmj]

I Knew I was going to get alot of sh*t for saying what i did , But after all this a thread about thoughts and our personal opinions right, I Believe deeply as a Muslim in my faith and that our book of warship in saying these actions are sinful, and to answer the question someone asked How would i know if thats a sin if i'm not a gay man, well i beleive that our books of warship dont lie.. and another answer to someones question...YES i believe thats gays, lesbians, bisexuals are normal people that just so happen to be making a sin...but i deeply respect people of all kinds and there choice is their choice

-Nmj

 

you can go ahead and believe whatever you like. im not stopping you. but the fact that irks me is that you keep rubbing "gays, les and bis are sinners" into our faces. this is not what i call respect. it is insulting. you can keep all these things to yourself, we dont wanna know. and "sin" is a rather harsh word. its just like saying i murdered someone. murder is a sin. is it so wrong to love someone of the same sex? am i taking someone's life by force from them? then we can all be called sinners just because we eat meat. plus, you are dodging the question that Frida asked you

 

Hey Clare,

Thankyou so much for your kind words...that means alot to me...that's just goes to show that gay and lesbians are normal people and I never ever even doubted that they were not normal...I just simply stated the way i believe and thats just me... I think alot of people disagree strongly with me, and the fact that I'm a Male very dedicated to CELINE DION but straight is very rare , she is amazing and I'm straight , but the fact is Celine is just great no matter ones sexual prefrence..... But Honestly, I have absolutly nothing against Gays or Lesbians ...we all are humans first, Right?

-Nmj

 

obviously you havent been hanging round the forum much. being a straight Celine fan is not rare...moreover, you are contradicting yourself. "I never ever even doubted that they were not normal...". first you say the gays are sinners, now you say you dont have anything against us...and we're not talking about being a Celine fan here. Celine is out of the question in this thread. i can say "oh im a Garou fan and im straight as hell cuz he's a guy and im a girl"

 

Here We Go, Let me answer some of your questions:

You asked Why i havent answered Frida's question yet, Well you are right Frida I Wouldnt know about how it is because I'm not gay, but in saying that I always used the Word SIN, Because it is used in the bible and Koran + Other Religous books.... I never meant to use that word in harm to anybody...But this is a thread opened to discuss our views everyone has their own veiws...in the way they think things should be, but in saying that This is how i feel and NOT because of Religous TEXT, like some of you may think, but because This is how I think...I Think that we were put on this earth...For a man to be with a Women....and A Women to be with a Man.....How would population continue if all the men were with men and all the women were with women, it wouldnt it would end.

Like I said in post before, I have Nothing against Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals.... I just don't agree with their way of living, that's all. I R.E.S.P.E.C.T. them because they can be great people...Look at Rosie, Ellen, Elton John, Geroge Michael and other Gays and Lesbians who are in the spotlight and give so much of their wealth to starving children, charaties, and other benefical places...I Just dont believe humans were put on this earth, to be matched with the opposite sex....I Know alot of gays and Lesbians they can be the nicest people I had neighbor that was a lesbian and she and her partner was the nicest neighbors that we had...I never ever said that just because these people are the way they are that they are commiting a sin..What I did say is these books of religon say this and I didnt write the

Koran, Bible or the torah....I was just stating some facts.

I'm truly sorry to anyone I may have offended, but this is how I feel*

I Know many of you will Hate me for everything I may have said...I strongly believe in people speaking thier truth and what they believe.....

Okay, Now I'm Done babbling, I'm Ready for the critisism

-Nmj

[hamiltonclare]

I think that this has gone far enough. This topic was started to discuss peoples idea of normal, and it seems to have become a bit of a witch hunt because one person has had the balls to stand up and say that he disagrees with the majority of others on this board.

NMJ isn't trying to change anyones opinion on the subject, he is being honest. I don't believe that he is homophobic, he is obviously someone who believes deeply in his religion and lives by it. I don't agree with him, which I have already said, but he's accepted my point of view and I've accepted his. Whats good for the goose aint always good for the gander.

 

I think we are all intelligent enough to understand the concept of discussion, one person disagreeing makes it more interesting. I'm not being hypocrytical - in my opinion, thank God that not everyone believes that gays/lesbians are sinners because I'd be halfway to hell by now - but thats what NMJ believes and so long as he doesn't take action against anyone of that sexual orientation, thats his belief. I do hope that maybe one day he will change his mind, but if he doesn't, its not going to affect my life, or that of anyone else. He's already stated that he respects everybody's lifestyles....!!

 

btw didn't anyone notice that Nmj said : as a Muslim in my faith and that our book of warship

 

I'm not sure if that was a misspelled worship or that she really thinks its a book that tells people to go to war

 

Davey, I really don't think that is helpful. Islam really a very peaceful religion, used by a few as a smokescreen for terrorism. I seem to believe that the IRA (Catholics) spent quite a few years bombing and murdering innocents in the name of their religion.

 

Clare

[zoe marie]

I don't believe you can truly hate anyone until you know everything about them, and I don't believe we ever know everything about anyone!!!

We all have hidden depths that are rarely seen by anyone

 

In responce to your comment about the religious texts my friend and I agree that while it is there to ensure that we as a species survive

But in the same breath I do believe that many species whether human or not have the same complexities with regard to sexual preferences

[Nmj]

- to KILL people who cheat on their wife. BOTH people must be killed: the woman and the man who cheat

Let's say I make this my daytime job (volunteer work of coure)... I'd get a call from an upset wife saying her husband cheated on her, and I say "aaw, poor thing, let me just grab my coat and I'll come and kill you ".

When someone asks me WHY I did it I'll just say "it says so in the bible, and the bible doesn't lie "

 

 

Does that make sense? Don't think so.. it was written a LONG time ago, things have CHANGED, why is it sooo hard for some to accept that? Why do people WANT to think it's a sin, do they WANT to hurt people's feelings? Do they WANT to descriminate people? Do they WANT to inflict even MORE pain, suffering and humiliation to some already horrible lives? I don't get it...

 

well you know I agree on that it has been written a long ago (duh) but things haven't changed! ever since there are people around there are the gay, the cheating, the killing, the loving, the good, the bad and the ugly... In the time of acient greace gayness wasn't seen as sinful, but a part of life... the bible has been put together in dark times of supression by men with too much power. Who know which gospels have been destroyed at that time! Maybe there was one about free sex, or the right to make your own choices or one about not being allowed to wear a silly hat on thursday, but only on monday what I want to say is... the Bible can't be seen as objective and should not be taken literally

 

 

btw didn't anyone notice that Nmj said : as a Muslim in my faith and that our book of warship

 

I'm not sure if that was a misspelled worship or that she really thinks its a book that tells people to go to war

 

people can think whatever they want or say whatever they want... if this is sin, that's oke for me, cos I never felt happier

 

 

that remark you just made was really mean...it was a simple mis-type....I dont think you understand how many people hate us...it's really sad that just because some muslims are stupid...doesn't mean that we are all terroists and thinking that killing people is the answer...thats just not true...and I never said your lifestyle is a sin...i said religous text says that...I didnt write the books..

I Believe everyone has right to love whoever they may choose...Like i said before I don't agree with it, but I understand it... Sorry if i offended you Ronny

-Nmj

Edited May 23, 2008 at 08:53 PM by Nmj

[Nmj]

I think that this has gone far enough. This topic was started to discuss peoples idea of normal, and it seems to have become a bit of a witch hunt because one person has had the balls to stand up and say that he disagrees with the majority of others on this board.

NMJ isn't trying to change anyones opinion on the subject, he is being honest. I don't believe that he is homophobic, he is obviously someone who believes deeply in his religion and lives by it. I don't agree with him, which I have already said, but he's accepted my point of view and I've accepted his. Whats good for the goose aint always good for the gander.

 

I think we are all intelligent enough to understand the concept of discussion, one person disagreeing makes it more interesting. I'm not being hypocrytical - in my opinion, thank God that not everyone believes that gays/lesbians are sinners because I'd be halfway to hell by now - but thats what NMJ believes and so long as he doesn't take action against anyone of that sexual orientation, thats his belief. I do hope that maybe one day he will change his mind, but if he doesn't, its not going to affect my life, or that of anyone else. He's already stated that he respects everybody's lifestyles....!!

 

btw didn't anyone notice that Nmj said : as a Muslim in my faith and that our book of warship

 

I'm not sure if that was a misspelled worship or that she really thinks its a book that tells people to go to war

 

Davey, I really don't think that is helpful. Islam really a very peaceful religion, used by a few as a smokescreen for terrorism. I seem to believe that the IRA (Catholics) spent quite a few years bombing and murdering innocents in the name of their religion.

 

Clare

 

Thanks so much Clare for all your kind words!

I want to thankyou for understanding my views, I dont agree with it but i dont believe it is a sin

either, what i did say is that some books have said it is a sin...

You seem like a very nice person and I want to say sorry if i offened you or anyone else here

Thankyou so much for all your kind words!

-Nmj

[zoe marie]

I think that this has gone far enough. This topic was started to discuss peoples idea of normal, and it seems to have become a bit of a witch hunt because one person has had the balls to stand up and say that he disagrees with the majority of others on this board.

NMJ isn't trying to change anyones opinion on the subject, he is being honest. I don't believe that he is homophobic, he is obviously someone who believes deeply in his religion and lives by it. I don't agree with him, which I have already said, but he's accepted my point of view and I've accepted his. Whats good for the goose aint always good for the gander.

 

I think we are all intelligent enough to understand the concept of discussion, one person disagreeing makes it more interesting. I'm not being hypocrytical - in my opinion, thank God that not everyone believes that gays/lesbians are sinners because I'd be halfway to hell by now - but thats what NMJ believes and so long as he doesn't take action against anyone of that sexual orientation, thats his belief. I do hope that maybe one day he will change his mind, but if he doesn't, its not going to affect my life, or that of anyone else. He's already stated that he respects everybody's lifestyles....!!

 

btw didn't anyone notice that Nmj said : as a Muslim in my faith and that our book of warship

 

I'm not sure if that was a misspelled worship or that she really thinks its a book that tells people to go to war

 

Davey, I really don't think that is helpful. Islam really a very peaceful religion, used by a few as a smokescreen for terrorism. I seem to believe that the IRA (Catholics) spent quite a few years bombing and murdering innocents in the name of their religion.

 

Clare

 

Thanks so much Clare for all your kind words!

I want to thankyou for understanding my views, I dont agree with it but i dont believe it is a sin

either, what i did say is that some books have said it is a sin...

You seem like a very nice person and I want to say sorry if i offened you or anyone else here

Thankyou so much for all your kind words!

-Nmj

 

 

I like Clare believe that the actions of the few should not imply that these are the actions of the many - I believe that we all have a part to play in the shaping of our future - whether we are male, female, gay, straight, black, white, etc!!!

 

I couldn't condone people being prejudiced to anyone whoever they are.

"To the Innocent, the Guilty do damage!"

 

I really do appreciate all of your comments as none of us are exactly the same!!!

[GoldenLeaf]

religion: god delusion based on fairytale, myth and fantasy

Indeed. Religion = Bunch of Bullshits.

[Ray]

The truth is, most people (not all) who say they are "against" gay people, say they feel this way because of the Bible (or other religious book). I find this a bit sad. Have the nerve to say YOU have problems with gay people instead of hiding behind a book.

 

And yes, gospels have been left out and some translations are really bad. If you take a closer look and study the Bible, you could even think that it would be very much possible that Jesus himself was gay. I hope someday this will be acknowleged, so Christianity would become much more civil and human.

[zoe marie]

The truth is, most people (not all) who say they are "against" gay people, say they feel this way because of the Bible (or other religious book). I find this a bit sad. Have the nerve to say YOU have problems with gay people instead of hiding behind a book.

 

And yes, gospels have been left out and some translations are really bad. If you take a closer look and study the Bible, you could even think that it would be very much possible that Jesus himself was gay. I hope someday this will be acknowleged, so Christianity would become much more civil and human.

 

Do not stereotype the many for the actions of the few.

I do believe that Nmj is stating he DOESN'T hate gay/lesbian people - it's his RELIGION that says that the lifestyle of gay/lesbian people and their relationships are wrong and this is why he says that these are sins in his eyes!!!

However this is a belief shared by MANY and it is only the FEW who choose this as a reason to hate those who are different - Nmj hasn't said anything to suggest that he is one of the FEW!

[marckvls]

If being gay is a sin, then I'll go to the hell!!

Oh, I'll stop being gay ritght now

[Nmj]

Thanks So Much Zoe Marie

-Nmj

[Jacqui]

As much as it's not nice to insult gay people, it's also not nice to say all religion is bullshit. If you're asking for respect, you've also got to give it to others.

To some people, their faith is a very important part of their lives. Some people truly believe in living exactly by the word of God, and that really is the reason they have a problem with homosexuality. And I think they have the right to believe that- as long as they don't judge or mistreat those who are gay.

I'm really confused about it, to be honest. I believe in God, but I don't think there's anything wrong with being gay. I have no idea right now what that means ifor my faith. But I know I believe in peace and love and I wish all my gay friends happiness.

[Nmj]

Agreed

_nmj

[Nmj]

[Ray]

The truth is, most people (not all) who say they are "against" gay people, say they feel this way because of the Bible (or other religious book). I find this a bit sad. Have the nerve to say YOU have problems with gay people instead of hiding behind a book.

 

And yes, gospels have been left out and some translations are really bad. If you take a closer look and study the Bible, you could even think that it would be very much possible that Jesus himself was gay. I hope someday this will be acknowleged, so Christianity would become much more civil and human.

 

Do not stereotype the many for the actions of the few.

I do believe that Nmj is stating he DOESN'T hate gay/lesbian people - it's his RELIGION that says that the lifestyle of gay/lesbian people and their relationships are wrong and this is why he says that these are sins in his eyes!!!

However this is a belief shared by MANY and it is only the FEW who choose this as a reason to hate those who are different - Nmj hasn't said anything to suggest that he is one of the FEW!

 

I wasn't talking about Nmj. I'm believe in God, but as I said before: there's only on one place something "against" being gay and it says a lot more about things we don't consider "sins" anymore. So you can believe and be gay.

 

Furthermore: why are people talking about sins????? There's only one who can do so: God! So let's be Him to judge and for all others: please respect each other. Amen.

[KimboCosmo]

It is no ones place to judge anyone...

 

[CelineDionx]

It is no ones place to judge anyone...

 

 

 

Well said!!! i think being comfortable in who you are is the most important thing! It doesnt matter wat ur sexual preference is once you are happy

Edited May 24, 2008 at 10:33 PM by CelineDionx

[zoe marie]

It is no ones place to judge anyone...

 

 

 

Well said!!! i think being comfortable in who you are is the most important thing! It doesnt matter wat ur sexual preference is once you are happy

 

I totally agree as for years I had considered myself to be less important than others in society. This notion was because I was bullied into thinking I wasn't good enough (I was shy in crowds!) Now I believe that my lifes work is to stand up for those who cannot do it for themselves.

 

And so to all those reading this who feel that they're not good enough in some way - YOU ARE!!!

 

"When life makes you frown, turn it upside down" - This phrase was said to me by a girl who was just 7years old!!!

[Nmj]

Well Said

-Nmj

[Davey84]

btw... anybody who says homosexuality is against nature:

 

Against Nature?

An exhibition about homosexuality in the animal world

 

The Natuurhistorisch Museum Maastricht has from 24 May 2008 a controversial exposition to guest: Against Nature? – An exhibition over homosexuality in the animal world.

 

Giraffs, pinguins and hedgehogs – are only a single few of the fifteen hundred animal species of which homosexual behavior is known. Compaired with some Kaketoespieces, homosexuality is a rare phenomenon: by the Rosékaketoe the half of all pairs is homosexual.

 

'Against Nature?' presents in a colorful exposition biological investigation to homosexual behavior with animals. The exposition has been developed through the Natuurhistorisch Museum of the University of Oslo, as a result of the remark of a prominent Norwegian clergyman who finds homosexuality "unnatural" . Nothing is less true: by more than fifteen hundred animal species homosexual behavior is observed and documented; five hundred kinds have the subject to expanded examinion by biologists.

 

From 24 May 2008 the exhibition in Dutch adaptation is to see in Maastricht. Homosexual behavior, as appeared, is manifested numouressly and is deadly common in the animal world.

 

"Against Nature?" is to be seen till 31 August 2008.

[alextrusca]

if there's a Hell for animals, they'll surely burn :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Jacqui]

Ooh yeah that's so true! I had gay budgies! Two boys, and they were so in love they'd kiss and do stuff all the time....

[KimboCosmo]

Ooh yeah that's so true! I had gay budgies! Two boys, and they were so in love they'd kiss and do stuff all the time....

What is budgies?