39 replies to this topic

[CelinesDIVO5]

I just want to say that a promo tour is not done by invite. Her PR team and René put together all of those details and got Celine booked on all of those TV shows. As for Spain, they had her RE-booked due to the success of the album there. These are also not paid appearances. They are promotional obligations which are put into an artists’ contract at a fixed dollar amount from the record company. Same goes for movie and television stars. Imagine the amounts of money that TV networks would have to pay someone in the likes of Celine for a 15 minute (maximum) appearance on a show like “The Tonight Show?” The networks would be bankrupt!

I do not blame Vegas for Celine’s albums not being as successful as they used to be. I blame piracy, streaming, online retailers (Amazon, iTunes etc.) and the evolution of the music industry (genre trends {rock and R&B was much more popular than pop in 2002}, new faces in the industry, new generations of fans). Did Vegas stagnate a few things? Maybe so. We will never know what kind of opportunities may have been passed over, or if that many were even brought to Celine during “AND...” if it was a known fact that she would be unavailable.

What I do know is that Vegas did make people talk about her. Sure, it wasn’t about an album or a single. But she certainly showed that she didn’t care about what critics had to say before the show even opened, and then proved EVERYONE (who had something negative to say) wrong. And then people still kept talking about her. The continuous sold out shows, the money being raked in. She cemented herself into a totally different league of performers. The Celine demand was still there, and she didn’t have to travel. That’s an incredible feat, especially as a trailblazer.

Would a tour for the ANDHC album have boosted her sales for the album? Most definitely. More casual fans would have bought it after seeing the concert. But then what would have happened after? Would she be more in demand than today? Would she be asked to tribute this person, perform on this awards show, have more successful albums? Who knows? It’s easy to dwell on the what if’s. Me personally, I think this was a better move for her career than going on tour for the ANDHC album. Vegas cemented a status for her, and then the TCWT was an unprecedented success. She’s has 3 consecutive and very successful Summer tours. She is being looked up to and respected as an artist much more now than just the vocal marvel she was looked at as in the 90s.

Vegas may have stagnated a few things in her career. But she certainly hasn’t stopped. Her career has never come to a halt because of Vegas. I don’t think a tour for ANDHC would have led her anywhere near to where she is now. And I’m okay with things the way they are.

Edited by CelinesDIVO5, 13 January 2019 - 12:02 PM.

[nuts2you]

well said Matt

[ivo]

Celine Fan 77, on 13 January 2019 - 07:49 AM, said:

Here's my big question: When did she first announce that she'd be doing a residency show in Las Vegas? I just checked the website Javito mentioned above and a magazine from February of 2002 already talked about it...

I remember getting a letter from the fanclub in early 2002.

[ivo]

Dion my heart Barbra, on 13 January 2019 - 11:54 AM, said:

TCOML and FIY had already made her top star in Europe, before Tianic, thanks

Way before MHWGO inreed!

[Javito]

JulienMcbeal, on 13 January 2019 - 10:08 AM, said:

Yes, they stopped promoting it. Why? Because it did not translate into charts positions / sales. So what's the point, when ANDHC and IA success was mixed. At least in the US, which I intentionnaly chose to focus on  - as Sony and Celine's team obviously did, probably, yes, because of Vegas the next year. But I tend to think it always was a wrong trope of them during her career.
Yes, the first month, ANDHC sales and chart positions were huge. I also already acknowledged that. Quality has nothing to do with her being #1 in 17 countries the first week. I said the start of the album was strong and huge due to her name and previous success, due to anticipation, then dropped because of the mixed succes of the singles. And that's why they stop promoting it. If the album was still strong (or at least in their commercial projections, cause it's the way industry works), they DEFINITIVELY would have realeased more singles. And would not have rushed a new rejected songs filled album (One heart) to promote AND. Since, as many said, other artists with far less sales had way more (correctly chosen) singles. Especially Cher, whose album only sold 1 million copies (but hey! it did gave us the Farewell tour! ).

Wrong. They stopped promoting the album because Sony Music knew that Céline's input wouldn't go any further beyond the end of 2002 to support the album. No more promo on TV. No more videoclips. It's as simple as that. The second promo leg of ANDHC in October/November 2002 was already focused in promoting the Vegas show more than anything else. Sony Music had already given up with her. And why Sony Music would keep promoting the album and releasing singles when Céline wouldn't move a finger to support them from 2003 and on? If Céline were to be AVAILABLE in 2003 to promote the album, God knows Sony would have kept sending more singles to radios, and I know this from first-hand from people who worked in Sony at the time and they were annoyed/pissed off/puzzled of Céline's commitment with Vegas, closing all doors to her music from March 2003 and who knows until when.

You say the success of the first two singles was mixed only in the US, and you admit you don't even acknowledge the album's undeniable success everywhere outside the US because... why? So bland in your arguments again. The US is NOT the world, fortunately. And she conquered very other strong markets in Europe like the UK and Germany. Do you still want to ignore this in your analysis?

And about One Heart album: wrong again. Sony Music only released this album to have an excuse to promote Céline's contract with Chrysler, and the exclusive song she released with them, I Drove All Night. The deal and sponsorship with Chrysler was a millionaire partnership, so they wanted to kill two birds with one stone releasing a new "album" to support Céline's residency in Vegas, and at the same time, promote the deal with Chrysler and the cars.

Quote

I just guess they were expecting more with this album. I don't deny the album was a success. It sure was. But it was not as big as her previous success (chart-wise). She wasn't at the top of things like before. Which is totally normal.

Again, you underestimate this album. You say it wasn't as big as her previous successes, and yet with ANDHC she reached #1 in countries that FIY and LTAL didn't even touched the top 5 . And then you say it wasn't as big as her previous hits but then you admit it was normal because of obvious factors (piracy being the strongest fact in the decline of sales around that time), you can't contradict yourself more??

Quote

I agree they choose the singles poorly. They should have picked Reveal instead of IDAN if they wanted a pop-dance song. Not releasing I surrender. Choosing quick and cheap success with I'm your angel instead of trying to make a new Christmas classic with CE or GBUE. Not releasing To love you more internationaly. And so on...

Reveal instead of IDAN as a single? You don't know what's the story about at this point, do you? IDAN was the song recorded to support the contract with Chrysler and launch her Vegas sponsorship, so there's no way they could have released any other single in 2003 other than IDAN on the first place right?

Edited by Javito, 13 January 2019 - 01:57 PM.

[Critiaslux]

JulienMcbeal, on 12 January 2019 - 10:00 AM, said:

I think many of you are way too optimistic of what her career would have been without A New Day.

Yes, they would have extend the album life span by releasing more singles, but would that really have been a game-changer? Were Goodbye's and At Last succesful? Hey, were ANDHC and IA THAT succesful?
Sure, it did well on AC charts, some songs even breaking records (including One Heart's (!) Have you ever been in love).
But ANDHC only reached 22 on Billboard Hot 100 (while the airplay only TTWII reached #6) and I'm Alive reached #6... on the AC chart! (11 on bubbling under Hot 100...).
Sure, IA scored in Europe. But not that big, skimming through its wikipedia page makes clear it charted for approximatively 10 weeks in most countries.

I don't know the evolution of this album's sales through 2002, but it was basicaly done by the end of year (maybe even the summer)? Why rushing a new album  (with rejected songs from ANDHC) to promote AND otherwise? Needless to say One Heart topped the charts only in a few european countries.

So obviously, her sales/airplay was beginning to decrease (I'm talking about charts mainly, not pure sales number, cause we all know CD sales were dropping more and more each year for the industry at that time). I'm really not convinced she gained so many younger fans during the first years of the 2000's. Charts (before the Vegas residency) already show otherwise. She already had less success.
Her star was beginning to fade (even if it was just a little).

René knew during the late 90's that Céline had reached her top. After Falling into you/ABM/grammys/Let's talk about love/MHWGO, she couldn't go higher. She was topping the industry, a world-wide pop star, considered the best singer, broke many records, won an oscar (technically not her but still)... She managed to stay on top till her sabbatical.
So I think René was right to put that Vegas stunt. She was an icon. Celine wanted stability. Not touring anymore. She didn't even want to record Let's talk about love and go touring so soon after the succes of FIY - but René knew it was her momentum and not the moment to step down. Knowing she couldn't be that high in the sky for so long (and that she didn't want the industry permanent sprint to go on) he opted for Vegas, building a shift from pop star status to Legend.
Let's remember Celine always said she wanted a career, not hits. She had hits in the 90's (and worked constantly and exhaustingly for making them), now she wanted the career (and the family).

Vegas WAS the best option for making all of that work together, and building the legend status since the charts weren't that big anymore. She wouldn't have had more top 10 hits (in the US, the most important and influencial market in the western world), she wouldn't have been the biggest star like before.


NOW, that doesn't mean all Vegas was perfect. It is true that it isolated her from the rest of the world and close many many doors for side projects. We all know how she struggled with her voice during this era. She left sprint races for a marathon!
The MAJOR problem was the number of shows each year, tiring her and keeping her from other opportunities, combine with the exclusivity contract - but we can understand Casear's Palace take on that, considering how much they invested.

Releasing a Queen Tribute or a spanish album?
Are you high? Yes, she said she wanted to. And yes, it would have been a perfect side project (I'm all for a spanish-speaking tribute to Queen!   ). But when she took time for a vegas-bypass project, what did she do? Miracle!
A great way to resonate with teen or young adult audiences! Do toddlers buy CDs? Well, their mothers already were, so what was the point?
That was apparently what she wanted to do - since she non-stopped talking abour motherhood from the first day she returned to the limelight. So I'll never believe that, without Vegas, she would have done those albums. Which is a shame. Or is it, considering the 'quality' of the Show must go on single and the non-original renditions of Queen's covers during TCWT?


Besides, I happen to think that sliding from power ballads to uptempo (or mid) songs was a move that speeded up her downfall chart-wise. The ANDHC album debuted very big and ended with awesome sales - mostly due to her typical audience wanting a new CD. And yes, because the single ANDHC was a good song. But it was an AC hit, not a top 40 hit. That says so much.
Imagine if I surrender came out in 2002? Considering the many contestants from audition shows covering it, considering it's a highlight from AND since day 1, considering it's a classic Celine power ballad... Evanescence and Avril Lavigne's ballads did very well at that time.

So I reject this ANDHC world tour, keep AND in the ranks (but with far less shows), and realease I surrender (though I don't know as first single, or second, but maybe as a lead in early 2003 for a re-release of ANDHC to promote AND).

I concur 100%.

Having lived the 90s Celine area and the 00s Celine area, it was clear that after her return in 2002 it would be going downhill.

Celine was super successful in 1996-1999 but not that cool.

ANDHC chart positions clearly showed that her radio support was crashing, especially in the USA and the UK which are trend setter for worldwide artists.

Only wish: that I surrender had been released as a single.
Sounds the hit ballad single missing in her 00s repertoire.

[JulienMcbeal]

I said ANDHC had success but not as much as previous Celine's albums or other artists' 2001-2003 albums.
I don't see any contradiction: just clarification. Nothing is all positive or all negative. It went well on some places, less well in some others. It's natural.
I just said that overall, it was a tad disappointing, especially since a big part of its sales are due to her previous success. We couldn't listen to albums before buying them, till the late 2000's, so previous releases had a big part in the first weeks sales. Or should we considered Zora Sourit being the reason for the strong first weeks of SISDA in France, or for its sales and chart in UK, Germany and USA?

Let's dig in!

All the way (nov.1999) sold 22 million copies worldwide. ANDHC, 12 - and seems stuck at that number for a long time? maybe it is more by now.
I put in ATW sales cause it was released 2 and a half years before ANDHC, though yeah the market was declining in that period. But it's a Best of.
Also I red she wasn't one of the most pirated artists back then, due to her public. I don't have any numbers for that.


For 2001-2003 albums worldwide:
The Eminem Show sold 30 million copies worldwide, Hybrid Theory 30, Come away with me 27, Meteora 27, No Angel 22, Let go 20, Up! 20, Fallen 17, Britney 15 million.
So it is possible to sell more than 20 million copies (as of today) for albums released in 2001 -2003, despite piracy.
Crazy in Love, Stripped, Laundry service, Missundaztood, A rush of blood to the head, Life for rent, Songs in a minor, Survivor, J.LO... sold 10-15 million copies too.
ANDHC is in that great area, but not dominating the era the way LTAL and FIY did theirs (alongside Come on over and Jagged little pill, two great albums, Go Canada!).

In Europe, now.
ANDHC sold 3 million copies (All The Way, 6).
Come away with me 7, Swing when you're wining 6, No angel 5, Life for Rent 5, A Rush of blood to the head 5, The Eminem Show 5.

United Kingdom is the biggest european market for international artists, and as Critiaslux noted, a trend setter: let's compare ANDHC in the three biggest countries there. Certifications only.
In UK? 300 000 copies. All the way: 1,3 million. The Eminem show: 1,8. Come away with me: 2,5. Hybrid theory 1,5. No Angel 3. Life for rent 3.
What a conquest.
In Germany? 400 000. All the way: 1 million. The Eminem Show: 800 000. Come away with me 750 000. Hybrid Theory: 750 000. No Angel 750 000 (do they stop counting at that number? ). Life for rent 600 000.
France? 1 million. All the way 800 000.  The Eminem show 900 000. Come away with me 1,8. Hybrid Theory : 300 000. No Angel 1,2. Life for rent 650 000.


So yeah, she had many #1s the first weeks in smaller markets (thx to past hit and anticipation).
And S'il n'en restait qu'une too was #1 on the French chart. Shall I suppose it is one of her biggest hits in her French career? #50 in the year-end chart.
Are we assuming D'elles was a huge succes? Achieved #1 and finished the year #21 for 2007. Okay but not great.

Since we cannot compare 96-98 sales with 2002 sales, let's look at the charts (Year-end, one week isn't representative as I just wrote).
ANDHC was the #3 sale of the year in Europe. Awesome... but a third of it came from France! So nothing really new or impressive for Celine.
In the year-end charts:
ANDHC UK #39, Germany #9, France #5.
Before that album? Still year-end charts:
FIY was #4 in UK, #7 in Germany, #2 in France.
LTAL (97-98) was #7 & #8 in UK, #87 & #2 in Germany, #8 & #9 in France.
ATW #12 UK, #53 germany (#19 in 2000), #1 France (compilations chart in France).
I couldn't find the numbers for global Europe. But she definitively not did better with ANDHC in the three biggest european markets.
With ANDHC, She hit #1 in Norway, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Italy... so did LTAL.


James Blunt's Back to bedlam sales (oct.2004): Europe 6. UK 3,4. Germany 900 000. France 1.
I just happened to stumble on this one! lol So I said to myself "why not?".

So no, I don't see her audience growing in 2002, neither her being as big as ever, nor conquesting Europe. I rest my case.
Let's see in 2019 if her new found coolness (with young people praising her) translate in the new audience buying in (with a big part thanx to Deadpool).

Javito, on 13 January 2019 - 01:54 PM, said:

Reveal instead of IDAN as a single? You don't know what's the story about at this point, do you? IDAN was the song recorded to support the contract with Chrysler and launch her Vegas sponsorship, so there's no way they could have released any other single in 2003 other than IDAN on the first place right?

I know she recorded IDAN because of the Chrisler partnership. I even brought the thing up myself!
So as I already wrote, I despise the whole thing. This contract was bonkers, and I wish she would have done without (kinda like you with the vegas deal).

Edited by JulienMcbeal, 14 January 2019 - 09:47 AM.

[CelinesDIVO5]

JulienMcbeal, on 14 January 2019 - 09:42 AM, said:

I said ANDHC had success but not as much as previous Celine's albums or other artists' 2001-2003 albums.
I don't see any contradiction: just clarification. Nothing is all positive or all negative. It went well on some places, less well in some others. It's natural.
I just said that overall, it was a tad disappointing, especially since a big part of its sales are due to her previous success. We couldn't listen to albums before buying them, till the late 2000's, so previous releases had a big part in the first weeks sales. Or should we considered Zora Sourit being the reason for the strong first weeks of SISDA in France, or for its sales and chart in UK, Germany and USA?

Let's dig in!

All the way (nov.1999) sold 22 million copies worldwide. ANDHC, 12 - and seems stuck at that number for a long time? maybe it is more by now.
I put in ATW sales cause it was released 2 and a half years before ANDHC, though yeah the market was declining in that period. But it's a Best of.
Also I red she wasn't one of the most pirated artists back then, due to her public. I don't have any numbers for that.


For 2001-2003 albums worldwide:
The Eminem Show sold 30 million copies worldwide, Hybrid Theory 30, Come away with me 27, Meteora 27, No Angel 22, Let go 20, Up! 20, Fallen 17, Britney 15 million.
So it is possible to sell more than 20 million copies (as of today) for albums released in 2001 -2003, despite piracy.
Crazy in Love, Stripped, Laundry service, Missundaztood, A rush of blood to the head, Life for rent, Songs in a minor, Survivor, J.LO... sold 10-15 million copies too.
ANDHC is in that great area, but not dominating the era the way LTAL and FIY did theirs (alongside Come on over and Jagged little pill, two great albums, Go Canada!).

In Europe, now.
ANDHC sold 3 million copies (All The Way, 6).
Come away with me 7, Swing when you're wining 6, No angel 5, Life for Rent 5, A Rush of blood to the head 5, The Eminem Show 5.

United Kingdom is the biggest european market for international artists, and as Critiaslux noted, a trend setter: let's compare ANDHC in the three biggest countries there. Certifications only.
In UK? 300 000 copies. All the way: 1,3 million. The Eminem show: 1,8. Come away with me: 2,5. Hybrid theory 1,5. No Angel 3. Life for rent 3.
What a conquest.
In Germany? 400 000. All the way: 1 million. The Eminem Show: 800 000. Come away with me 750 000. Hybrid Theory: 750 000. No Angel 750 000 (do they stop counting at that number? ). Life for rent 600 000.
France? 1 million. All the way 800 000.  The Eminem show 900 000. Come away with me 1,8. Hybrid Theory : 300 000. No Angel 1,2. Life for rent 650 000.


So yeah, she had many #1s the first weeks in smaller markets (thx to past hit and anticipation).
And S'il n'en restait qu'une too was #1 on the French chart. Shall I suppose it is one of her biggest hits in her French career? #50 in the year-end chart.
Are we assuming D'elles was a huge succes? Achieved #1 and finished the year #21 for 2007. Okay but not great.

Since we cannot compare 96-98 sales with 2002 sales, let's look at the charts (Year-end, one week isn't representative as I just wrote).
ANDHC was the #3 sale of the year in Europe. Awesome... but a third of it came from France! So nothing really new or impressive for Celine.
In the year-end charts:
ANDHC UK #39, Germany #9, France #5.
Before that album? Still year-end charts:
FIY was #4 in UK, #7 in Germany, #2 in France.
LTAL (97-98) was #7 & #8 in UK, #87 & #2 in Germany, #8 & #9 in France.
ATW #12 UK, #53 germany (#19 in 2000), #1 France (compilations chart in France).
I couldn't find the numbers for global Europe. But she definitively not did better with ANDHC in the three biggest european markets.
With ANDHC, She hit #1 in Norway, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Italy... so did LTAL.


James Blunt's Back to bedlam sales (oct.2004): Europe 6. UK 3,4. Germany 900 000. France 1.
I just happened to stumble on this one! lol So I said to myself "why not?".

So no, I don't see her audience growing in 2002, neither her being as big as ever, nor conquesting Europe. I rest my case.
Let's see in 2019 if her new found coolness (with young people praising her) translate in the new audience buying in (with a big part thanx to Deadpool).




I know she recorded IDAN because of the Chrisler partnership. I even brought the thing up myself!
So as I already wrote, I despise the whole thing. This contract was bonkers, and I wish she would have done without (kinda like you with the vegas deal).

Chrysler was also the main sponsor of AND at the time, so she couldn’t exactly do without them lol.

[JulienMcbeal]

CelinesDIVO5, on 14 January 2019 - 10:38 AM, said:

Chrysler was also the main sponsor of AND at the time, so she couldn’t exactly do without them lol.

I know. And that pisses me off!

Envoyé de mon LLD-L31 en utilisant Tapatalk

[ivo]

JulienMcbeal, on 14 January 2019 - 09:42 AM, said:

I said ANDHC had success but not as much as previous Celine's albums or other artists' 2001-2003 albums.
I don't see any contradiction: just clarification. Nothing is all positive or all negative. It went well on some places, less well in some others. It's natural.
I just said that overall, it was a tad disappointing, especially since a big part of its sales are due to her previous success. We couldn't listen to albums before buying them, till the late 2000's, so previous releases had a big part in the first weeks sales. Or should we considered Zora Sourit being the reason for the strong first weeks of SISDA in France, or for its sales and chart in UK, Germany and USA?

Let's dig in!

All the way (nov.1999) sold 22 million copies worldwide. ANDHC, 12 - and seems stuck at that number for a long time? maybe it is more by now.
I put in ATW sales cause it was released 2 and a half years before ANDHC, though yeah the market was declining in that period. But it's a Best of.
Also I red she wasn't one of the most pirated artists back then, due to her public. I don't have any numbers for that.


For 2001-2003 albums worldwide:
The Eminem Show sold 30 million copies worldwide, Hybrid Theory 30, Come away with me 27, Meteora 27, No Angel 22, Let go 20, Up! 20, Fallen 17, Britney 15 million.
So it is possible to sell more than 20 million copies (as of today) for albums released in 2001 -2003, despite piracy.
Crazy in Love, Stripped, Laundry service, Missundaztood, A rush of blood to the head, Life for rent, Songs in a minor, Survivor, J.LO... sold 10-15 million copies too.
ANDHC is in that great area, but not dominating the era the way LTAL and FIY did theirs (alongside Come on over and Jagged little pill, two great albums, Go Canada!).

In Europe, now.
ANDHC sold 3 million copies (All The Way, 6).
Come away with me 7, Swing when you're wining 6, No angel 5, Life for Rent 5, A Rush of blood to the head 5, The Eminem Show 5.

United Kingdom is the biggest european market for international artists, and as Critiaslux noted, a trend setter: let's compare ANDHC in the three biggest countries there. Certifications only.
In UK? 300 000 copies. All the way: 1,3 million. The Eminem show: 1,8. Come away with me: 2,5. Hybrid theory 1,5. No Angel 3. Life for rent 3.
What a conquest.
In Germany? 400 000. All the way: 1 million. The Eminem Show: 800 000. Come away with me 750 000. Hybrid Theory: 750 000. No Angel 750 000 (do they stop counting at that number? ). Life for rent 600 000.
France? 1 million. All the way 800 000.  The Eminem show 900 000. Come away with me 1,8. Hybrid Theory : 300 000. No Angel 1,2. Life for rent 650 000.


So yeah, she had many #1s the first weeks in smaller markets (thx to past hit and anticipation).
And S'il n'en restait qu'une too was #1 on the French chart. Shall I suppose it is one of her biggest hits in her French career? #50 in the year-end chart.
Are we assuming D'elles was a huge succes? Achieved #1 and finished the year #21 for 2007. Okay but not great.

Since we cannot compare 96-98 sales with 2002 sales, let's look at the charts (Year-end, one week isn't representative as I just wrote).
ANDHC was the #3 sale of the year in Europe. Awesome... but a third of it came from France! So nothing really new or impressive for Celine.
In the year-end charts:
ANDHC UK #39, Germany #9, France #5.
Before that album? Still year-end charts:
FIY was #4 in UK, #7 in Germany, #2 in France.
LTAL (97-98) was #7 & #8 in UK, #87 & #2 in Germany, #8 & #9 in France.
ATW #12 UK, #53 germany (#19 in 2000), #1 France (compilations chart in France).
I couldn't find the numbers for global Europe. But she definitively not did better with ANDHC in the three biggest european markets.
With ANDHC, She hit #1 in Norway, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Italy... so did LTAL.


James Blunt's Back to bedlam sales (oct.2004): Europe 6. UK 3,4. Germany 900 000. France 1.
I just happened to stumble on this one! lol So I said to myself "why not?".

So no, I don't see her audience growing in 2002, neither her being as big as ever, nor conquesting Europe. I rest my case.
Let's see in 2019 if her new found coolness (with young people praising her) translate in the new audience buying in (with a big part thanx to Deadpool).




I know she recorded IDAN because of the Chrisler partnership. I even brought the thing up myself!
So as I already wrote, I despise the whole thing. This contract was bonkers, and I wish she would have done without (kinda like you with the vegas deal).

Could not agree more with everything you poster in this topic! Celines plak was definately in the late nineties. I lives throughout all of her succes in the nineties and is was totally different than in the early zero’s. Radio support was going downhill after TTWII.