215 replies to this topic

[wjd]

garçon, on 22 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Thank you for that! So, do you have any explanation for these albums being undercertified?
Or are Mariah's albums equally undercertified, considering additional 'cub'sales?

Do they actually count according to Billboard?

Besides, A Diamond certification for All The Way would be an unparalleled achievement for as far as I know...

As far as female hits albums go, a couple of other females have diamond albums so it wouldn't be that unparalleled. One thing it would mean is that Celine would be the first female artists to attain 3 diamond albums [Shania technically has 3 - but one of them is a double album, and actually sold only 5m copies].

Billboard compile a chart, and use Soundscan figures to compile this chart - this has never included club sales. So the top 200 albums chart that you see each week from Billboard [collated by Soundscan] has always excluded club sales.

Mariah is uncertified, but Celine is MAJORLY uncertified; Celine's Soundscan sales alone are more than what the RIAA has certified her for [she's sold over 51m via Soundscan but is certified for only 50m by the RIAA] - I estimate that she's under-certified by over 10m albums [I estimate her US shipments to be around 60.5m - 10.5m under-certified] - Mariah is under-certified by less than half of that. Janet Jackson is under-certified by about 8-9m also.

Just to recap...

Soundscan = the agency that has since 1991 tracked US album sales SOLD IN RETAILERS. They DO NOT include music clubs. In the mid 90's when Celine was at her peak, Soundscan tracked 75% all US sales, and as such, that is why some albums [ala Mariah's Music Box - which granted also sold well through music clubs] have RIAA shipments that far exceed their "over-the-counter" sales.

RIAA - the Recording Industry Association of America. Completely unaffiliated with music clubs, Soundscan or Billboard, these guys are responsible for certifying album's. It is made up of record companies. In order for an album to be certified, record companies need to pay a ground fee of between $300-$500 + cover expenses of the auditor that completes the audit. Record labels need to be able to PROVE that they have shipped X amount of albums, before an album can be certified.

The easiest way to remember this is that Soundscan + music clubs = RIAA. So sales + sales = shipments.

[garçon]

Of course, with 'unparalleled' I meant these three albums one after another to be certified, eventually, diamond..
I can't think of any other artist or group, with albums released with an interval of 1,5 year approximately

Thanks, that's really insightful to read, but just to get this as clear as possible:
Don't shipments also include the, in-a-way-of-speaking, non sold/shipped storage in stores?
So, if I understand you correctly, Sony music has to prove to 'the RIAA' the additional amount of shipments via music clubs to be able to certify ATW diamond in the US?

[garçon]

btw: how 'public' are these Club shipments? Is there anyway you could verify these figures?

[wjd]

garçon, on 22 December 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

Of course, with 'unparalleled' I meant these three albums one after another to be certified, eventually, diamond..
I can't think of any other artist or group, with albums released with an interval of 1,5 year approximately

Thanks, that's really insightful to read, but just to get this as clear as possible:
Don't shipments also include the, in-a-way-of-speaking, non sold/shipped storage in stores?
So, if I understand you correctly, Sony music has to prove to 'the RIAA' the additional amount of shipments via music clubs to be able to certify ATW diamond in the US?

Yes, shipments do include copies that are sitting on shelves.

Sony Music need to be able to prove to the RIAA via invoices and receipts that they have shipped 10m copies to US retailers/sold through their music clubs - as long as the final figure [minus returns - some retailers send back unsold stock] exceeds 10m copies, the album is eligible for diamond.

In February 2003, BMG released their top-selling albums -

1. SHANIA TWAIN - COME ON OVER (MERCURY NASHVILLE) (1.99 million units)
2. BACKSTREET BOYS - BACKSTREET BOYS (JIVE) (1.72 million units)
3. BRITNEY SPEARS - ...BABY ONE MORE TIME (JIVE) (1.60 million units)
4. BACKSTREET BOYS - MILLENNIUM (JIVE) (1.59 million units)
5. EMINEM - THE MARSHALL MATHERS LP (INTERSCOPE) (1.54 million units)
6. 'N SYNC - NO STRINGS ATTACHED (JIVE) (1.52 million units)
7. EAGLES - THEIR GREATEST HITS 1971 - 1975 (ELEKTRA) (1.52 million units)
8. 'N SYNC - 'N SYNC (JIVE) (1.50 million units)
9. JANET JACKSON - DESIGN OF A DECADE - 1986/1996 (A&M) (1.48 million units)
10. MADONNA - THE IMMACULATE COLLECTION (WARNER BROS) (1.46 million units)

11. JEWEL - PIECES OF YOU (ATLANTIC) (1.40 million units)
12. AC/DC - BACK IN BLACK (ATCO) (1.33 million units)
13. NO DOUBT - TRAGIC KINGDOM (TRAUMA) (1.32 million units)
14. FLEETWOOD MAC - RUMOURS (WARNER BROS) (1.31 million units)
15. KID ROCK - DEVIL WITHOUT A CAUSE (LAVA) (1.31 millon units)
16. WHITNEY HOUSTON - THE BODYGUARD (SOUNDTRACK) (ARISTA) (1.31 million units)
17. HOOTIE & THE BLOWFISH - CRACKED REAR VIEW (ATLANTIC) (1.30 million units)
18. BOYZ II MEN - II (MOTOWN) (1.29 million units)
19. KENNY G - BREATHLESS (ARISTA) (1.29 million units)
20. WILL SMITH - BIG WILLIE STYLE (COLUMBIA) (1.29 million units)

21. DIXIE CHICKS - WIDE OPEN SPACES (MONUMENT) (1.28 million units)
22. TLC - CRAZYSEXYCOOL (LAFACE) (1.27 million units)
23. GREEN DAY - DOOKIE (REPRISE) (1.26 million units)
24. SANTANA - SUPERNATURAL (ARISTA) (1.26 million units)
25. SHANIA TWAIN - THE WOMAN IN ME (MERCURY NASHVILLE) (1.24 million units)
26. NIRVANA - NEVERMIND (GEFFEN) (1.24 million units)
27. BRITNEY SPEARS - OOPS!... I DID IT AGAIN (JIVE) (1.21 million units)
28. MATCHBOX TWENTY - YOURSELF OR SOMEONE LIKE YOU (ATLANTIC) (1.18 million units)
29. EMINEM - THE SLIM SHADY LP (INTERSCOPE) (1.16 million units)
30. BEASTIE BOYS - LICENSED TO ILL (DEF JAM) (1.13 million units)

31. BOYZ II MEN - COOLEYHIGHHARMONY (MOTOWN) (1.13 million units)
32. THE NOTORIOUS B.I.G. - LIFE AFTER DEATH (BAD BOY) (1.12 million units)
33. CELINE DION - LET'S TALK ABOUT LOVE (550 MUSIC) (1.11 million units)
34. CELINE DION - ALL THE WAY... A DECADE OF SONG (550 MUSIC) (1.10 million units)
35. JANET JACKSON - JANET JACKSON'S RHYTHM NATION 1814 (A&M) (1.10 million units)
36. ACE OF BASE - THE SIGN (ARISTA) (1.08 million units)
37. BILLY RAY CYRUS - SOME GAVE ALL (MERCURY) (1.08 million units)
38. NATALIE COLE - UNFORGETTABLE (ELEKTRA) (1.03 million units)
39. MARIAH CAREY - #1's (SONY) (1.00 million units)
40. ALICIA KEYS - SONGS IN A MINOR (J) (995,000 units)

41. BACKSTREET BOYS - BLACK & BLUE (JIVE) (992,000 units)
42. RICKY MARTIN - RICKY MARTIN (SONY) (987,000 units)
43. CELINE DION - FALLING INTO YOU (550 MUSIC) (987,000 units)
44. SARAH MCLACHLAN - SURFACING (ARISTA) (985,000 units)
45. PUFF DADDY & THE FAMILY - NO WAY OUT (BAD BOY) (978,000 units)
46. TONI BRAXTON - TONI BRAXTON (LAFACE) (972,000 units)
47. SOUNDTRACK - TITANIC (SONY) (971,000 units)
48. CHRISTINA AGUILERA - CHRISTINA AGUILERA (RCA) (935,000 units)
49. TONI BRAXTON - SECRETS (LAFACE) (927,000 units)
50. MICHAEL JACKSON - THRILLER (EPIC) (923,000 units)

51. EN VOGUE - FUNKY DIVAS (EASTWEST) (916,000 units)
52. MEAT LOAF - BAT OUT OF HELL II - BACK INTO HELL (MCA) (909,000 units)
53. SOUNDTRACK - DIRTY DANCING (RCA) (904,000 units)
54. SOUNDTRACK - GREASE (POLYDOR) (899,000 units)
55. GUNS & ROSES - APPETITE FOR DESTRUCTION (GEFFEN) (890,000 units)
56. SOUNDTRACK - WAITING TO EXHALE (ARISTA) (886,000 units)
57. ABBA - GOLD GREATEST HITS (POLYDOR) (884,000 units)
58. JANET JACKSON - CONTROL (A&M) (883,000 units)
59. MADONNA - LIKE A VIRGIN (WARNER BROS) (882,000 units)
60. LAURYN HILL - THE MISEDUCATION OF LAURYN HILL (SONY) (880,000 units)

61. MICHAEL JACKSON - BAD (SONY) (879,000 units)
62. TLC - FANMAIL (LAFACE) (877,000 units)
63. JANET JACKSON - JANET. (VIRGIN) (860,000 units) *
64. DMX - IT'S DARK AND HELL IS HOT (DEF JAM) (857,000 units)
65. MARIAH CAREY - DAYDREAM (SONY) (848,000 units)
66. THIRD EYE BLIND - THIRD EYE BLIND (ELEKTRA) (842,000 units)
67. SHERYL CROW - TUESDAY NIGHT MUSIC CLUB (A&M) (833,000 units)
68. 'N SYNC - CELEBRITY (JIVE) (826,000 units)
69. LINKIN' PARK - HYBRID THEORY (WARNER BROS) (826,000 units)
70. FUGEES - THE SCORE (SONY) (822,000 units)

71. WHITNEY HOUSTON - WHITNEY (ARISTA) (806,000 units)
72. USHER - MY WAY (LAFACE) (796,000 units)
73. U2 - THE JOSHUA TREE (ISLAND) (779,000 units)
74. AALIYAH - ONE IN A MILLION (ATLANTIC) (756,000 units) *
75. SELENA - DREAMING OF YOU (EMI) (745,000 units)
76. MARIAH CAREY - MUSIC BOX (SONY) (735,000 units)
77. BLACKSTREET - ANOTHER LEVEL (INTERSCOPE) (733,000 units)
78. MICHAEL JACKSON - HISTORY (EPIC) (730,000 units)
79. DESTINY'S CHILD - THE WRITING'S ON THE WALL (COLUMBIA) (703,000 units)
80. NICKELBACK - SILVER SIDE UP (ROADRUNNER) (692,000 units)

81. BRANDY - NEVER SAY NEVER (ATLANTIC) (665,000 units)
82. SOUNDTRACK - NUTTY PROFESSOR II: THE KLUMPS (DEF JAM) (642,000 units)
83. CELINE DION - CELINE DION (550 MUSIC) (624,000 units)
84. BRITNEY SPEARS - BRITNEY (JIVE) (588,000 units)
85. MARY J. BLIGE - SHARE MY WORLD (MCA) (559,000 units)
86. JEWEL - SPIRIT (ATLANTIC) (521,000 units)
87. KENNY G - FAITH/A HOLIDAY ALBUM (ARISTA) (503,000 units)
88. PRINCE - THE HITS 1 (WARNER BROS) (501,000 units)
89. SHERYL CROW - SHERYL CROW (A&M) (500,000 units)
90. SHANIA TWAIN - UP! (MERCURY NASHVILLE) (477,000 units) *

91. MADONNA - RAY OF LIGHT (WARNER BROS.) (459,000 units)
92. LFO - LFO (ARISTA) (456,000 units)
93. MARIAH CAREY - RAINBOW (SONY) (443,000 units)
94. DESTINY'S CHILD - SURVIVOR (SONY) (439,000 units)
95. JANET JACKSON - THE VELVET ROPE (VIRGIN) (420,000 units) *
96. SHANIA TWAIN - SHANIA TWAIN (MERCURY NASHVILLE) (390,000 units)
97. AALIYAH - AALIYAH (VIRGIN) (350,000 units) *
98. ALANIS MORISSETTE - JAGGED LITTLE PILL (MAVERICK) (350,000 units) *
99. MADONNA - TRUE BLUE (WARNER BROS). (301,000 units)
100. MICHAEL JACKSON - DANGEROUS (SONY) (298,000 units)

Press release HERE.

Columbia have never released an official list - all we know is that they were a slightly bigger club than BMG, and their biggest artist was Mariah Carey. Celine was also huge there.

[garçon]

THANKS! So these -as BMG- sales are actually not included in RIAA certification numbers then? So we could add these millions to the actual Soundscan Nielssen numbers? For all the artist except Celine (a less Mariah and Janet Jackson)?

[garçon]

Maybe this is to speculative to ask, but what do you think would be the reason Sony lets Celine's record undercertified?

[wjd]

garçon, on 22 December 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

THANKS! So these -as BMG- sales are actually not included in RIAA certification numbers then? So we could add these millions to the actual Soundscan Nielssen numbers? For all the artist except Celine (a less Mariah and Janet Jackson)?

In theory, anything that classes as a retail sale - be it via Soundscan or a music club - should then pertain to the relevant RIAA cert.

I cannot say for sure whether the club sales are included in her RIAA total - but I would venture a guess that they aren't.

All The Way... being a prime example - it is certified 7 x multi-platinum by the RIAA but its sold 8m copies via Soundscan alone.

All we can do is make educated guesses - just remember though, a retail sale [i.e. an album purchased by a customer regardless of whether its in a shop, a music club or online] won't always make perfect sense in relation to RIAA shipments.

[wjd]

garçon, on 22 December 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

Maybe this is to speculative to ask, but what do you think would be the reason Sony lets Celine's record undercertified?

Prestige is no longer found in record sales - and it costs money.

And Sony obviously does't care.

[garçon]

Well, they care enough to proclaim she is the best selling female artist in history and also having SA already certified Diamond, right??
Perhaps as soon as Water and a Flame comes out, in the whole process of promotion, these numbers could be rearranged? As was the case when the previous English albums came out, if I remember correctly?

[wjd]

garçon, on 22 December 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

Well, they care enough to proclaim she is the best selling female artist in history and also having SA already certified Diamond, right??
Perhaps as soon as Water and a Flame comes out, in the whole process of promotion, these numbers could be rearranged? As was the case when the previous English albums came out, if I remember correctly?

But Sans attendre ISN'T officially certified diamond yet - see HERE; http://www.actu.snep...R-2012_site.pdf

But it definitely will have shipped diamond, we're just waiting for the cert.

[garçon]

okay, but, now I don't understand (again ).. since you said that albums are usually certified whatever on shipments..
like The Immaculate Collection and the two Mariah Albums  ..

[wjd]

garçon, on 22 December 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

okay, but, now I don't understand (again ).. since you said that albums are usually certified whatever on shipments..
like The Immaculate Collection and the two Mariah Albums  ..

In the vast majority of countries, a label has to apply for a certification and this costs money.

So sometimes, an album wont get certified - as labels aren't willing to part with their cash.

In the case of Sans attendre, Sony have said that its shipped 600,000 copies - but they obviously haven't applied to the SNEP [the French equivalent of the RIAA] for the certification. So its not "officially" diamond yet, but it has shipped sufficient amounts to be diamond.

[garçon]

wjd, on 22 December 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

In the vast majority of countries, a label has to apply for a certification and this costs money.

So sometimes, an album wont get certified - as labels aren't willing to part with their cash.

In the case of Sans attendre, Sony have said that its shipped 600,000 copies - but they obviously haven't applied to the SNEP [the French equivalent of the RIAA] for the certification. So its not "officially" diamond yet, but it has shipped sufficient amounts to be diamond.

Okay I understand. But then again, the USA should be important enough..
I remember a couple of years ago that the Mariah albums and The Immaculate Collection weren't certified Diamond yet (and they remain on a sales number comparable to ATW according to wikipedia)..SO hopefully, for Celine's honour, and that of her fans LOL, Sony will pay some attention to this.

Besides that; do you have any updates on the worldsales ?

[TiagoFragoso05]

Gicedi, on 12 July 2011 - 03:48 AM, said:

Total useless release! We just dont need this at all!

we don't need, i'm sure 'bout that.. but maybe the new fans, the collectors, and sony needs to " give" something 'bout celine, so.. boxes, releases. i just can not understand at all WHY not to release Memphis concert.. there must be something we don't know..

[TiagoFragoso05]

Celine Fan 77, on 20 July 2011 - 10:30 AM, said:

I always wondered why they included few videos from Memphis instead of the original clips on the All The Way... A Decade Of Song & Video DVD.  

In my opinion there must be something we don't know at all... maybe copyright of something..  frist, RDMH and the speech was not include on vhs and vcd , second so much of this concert was not include in the releases, third IT WAS PLANED  to re release in DVD in feb 2008, than cancelled ... oh, and there's a different version of "call the man " on iTunes, with new angles and if you put the 2 versions u see clearly that in one point it was recorded in one day.. at least 2 different dates ! ( re edited for the cancelled dvd ? )  we don't know =((

[TiagoFragoso05]

Here in Brazil, after 2004,2005.. it's SO RARE to see celine's " old stuff, and even some new" in stores we just have all the way CD, and falling into you and the dvd and blu-ray from CBS special 2008, in every CD store we have only these ones .. we had taking chances, TC tour, vegas show ( only dvd) and essential collection at the time they were released.. but now, it's SO RARE to find something bout celine here, instead of all the way cd, falling into you and let's talk about love ( rare)..  sony promotion for Celine here is the WORST.. and  this is so bad for us, Brazilian fans, and we have a lot of fans.. , coz the real fans, needs to import. and here's a big country.. it's unfair    Sorry if the things i said did not field the topic, just wanna share how frustrating this is...   ( not even re release we have )

[wjd]

garçon, on 22 December 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

Okay I understand. But then again, the USA should be important enough..
I remember a couple of years ago that the Mariah albums and The Immaculate Collection weren't certified Diamond yet (and they remain on a sales number comparable to ATW according to wikipedia)..SO hopefully, for Celine's honour, and that of her fans LOL, Sony will pay some attention to this.

Besides that; do you have any updates on the worldsales ?

Total worldwide sales for Celine, or a particular album?

Overall, I reckon her sales to be 175m albums, 50-51m singles, 5m home videos/DVDs = 230m+ records. Of all-time, she ranks thus...

1. Madonna - 310m
2. Celine - 230m
3. Mariah - 205m
4. Whitney Houston - 200m
5. Barbra Streisand - 180m
6. Diana Ross - 180m [including a 90m records she's amassed with the Supremes]
7. Britney Spears - 140m
8. Rihanna - 140m [a major portion of this is made up of featuring's - take out featuring's and her tally is somewhat less impressive]

....and so on.

In a list of all-time acts - males, females and bands/groups - Celine would rank #8 or #9 - behind...

1. The Beatles - 525m
2. Elvis Presley - 400m
3. Michael Jackson - 350m
4. Madonna - 310m
5. Elton John - 270m
6. Queen - 250m
7. The Rolling Stones - 250m
8. Celine Dion - 230m
9. Frank Sinatra [conservatively, I reckon his sales to be AT LEAST 225m - I've seen realistic estimations that peg his album sales at 150m, his single sales are much harder to come by]
10. Pink Floyd - 225m [210m of which are albums!!!!]

The only acts on the list above to have two or more 30m+ selling albums is Michael Jackson and the Beatles. Floyd also come close.

[LuisMa]

tih_bm, on 22 December 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

Here in Brazil, after 2004,2005.. it's SO RARE to see celine's " old stuff, and even some new" in stores we just have all the way CD, and falling into you and the dvd and blu-ray from CBS special 2008, in every CD store we have only these ones .. we had taking chances, TC tour, vegas show ( only dvd) and essential collection at the time they were released.. but now, it's SO RARE to find something bout celine here, instead of all the way cd, falling into you and let's talk about love ( rare)..  sony promotion for Celine here is the WORST.. and  this is so bad for us, Brazilian fans, and we have a lot of fans.. , coz the real fans, needs to import. and here's a big country.. it's unfair Sorry if the things i said did not field the topic, just wanna share how frustrating this is...   ( not even re release we have )

What I love about Brazilian Celine stuff is that you guys had an amazing release of singles that weren't available anywhere else. I once bought the "Make You Happy" CD single, but they sent it to me with a photocopied cover. At least the CD is the true original one.

By the way, I love your analysis of your previous posts, Wayne. Very comprehensive.

Edited by LuisMa, 23 December 2012 - 04:30 PM.

[garçon]

wjd, on 23 December 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Total worldwide sales for Celine, or a particular album?

Overall, I reckon her sales to be 175m albums, 50-51m singles, 5m home videos/DVDs = 230m+ records. Of all-time, she ranks thus...

1. Madonna - 310m
2. Celine - 230m
3. Mariah - 205m
4. Whitney Houston - 200m
5. Barbra Streisand - 180m
6. Diana Ross - 180m [including a 90m records she's amassed with the Supremes]
7. Britney Spears - 140m
8. Rihanna - 140m [a major portion of this is made up of featuring's - take out featuring's and her tally is somewhat less impressive]

....and so on.

In a list of all-time acts - males, females and bands/groups - Celine would rank #8 or #9 - behind...

1. The Beatles - 525m
2. Elvis Presley - 400m
3. Michael Jackson - 350m
4. Madonna - 310m
5. Elton John - 270m
6. Queen - 250m
7. The Rolling Stones - 250m
8. Celine Dion - 230m
9. Frank Sinatra [conservatively, I reckon his sales to be AT LEAST 225m - I've seen realistic estimations that peg his album sales at 150m, his single sales are much harder to come by]
10. Pink Floyd - 225m [210m of which are albums!!!!]

The only acts on the list above to have two or more 30m+ selling albums is Michael Jackson and the Beatles. Floyd also come close.

Thanks! Really informative!
So, she is actually the SECOND best selling female artist in music history... counting all sales..
Concerning album sales she would still be the best selling female artist?
Could you maybe compose such a list assuming only album sales?

I actually wanted to ask you about the world wide sales of ATW..
But now I'm interested in the actual figures of all the albums
Although, I don't want to bother you if it would take to much time or effort.
anyway: grazie mille in advance

[pat200]

regarding album sales madonna is also first with about 196 million albums sold and celine is second with about 175 million sold

[chocolatechip15]

Celine Fan 77, on 20 July 2011 - 10:30 AM, said:

I always wondered why they included few videos from Memphis instead of the original clips on the All The Way... A Decade Of Song & Video DVD.  

The videos from Memphis on the All the Way DVD are Beauty and the Beast and Beacause You Loved Me -- both the official videos for those songs are full of clips from the movies -- it's probably a copyright thing.

[TiagoFragoso05]

LuisMa, on 23 December 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

What I love about Brazilian Celine stuff is that you guys had an amazing release of singles that weren't available anywhere else. I once bought the "Make You Happy" CD single, but they sent it to me with a photocopied cover. At least the CD is the true original one.

By the way, I love your analysis of your previous posts, Wayne. Very comprehensive.

when they released Falling Into You CD, I was only 4 years old =(
  ( photocopied cover was kind of "normal" here until they made something, i don't even know what they did)
I miss that, the most successful years of her life.. I only remember the movie Titanic, and our "national " version of my heart will go on, witch was played every where, every day.. both versions. I have this in my mind so clearly..

well what I like 'bout the cds,dvds here.. we also have the Spanish songs, the dvd+cd of a new day has come ( super love included in both versions), Vegas show cd+dvd with the special.. the dvd single from ANDHC and now the blu ray of cbs special 2008..

But, since 2004 we almost have nothing "new " like singles, deluxe version's , Nothing different ! And this is so bad for me, i don't care about import things, but you know, no videos on tv, just " Amaury junior" talks about celine, the last poster for a cd that i saw was for one heart !

[CelinesDIVO5]

pat200, on 23 December 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

regarding album sales madonna is also first with about 196 million albums sold and celine is second with about 175 million sold

How is this possible in 2012 though, when in 2004 she was awarded the Diamond World Music Award for surpassing sales of 175 million???

Also to make a simple explanation of  customer sales vs. RIAA certification...RIAA certifications are also based on customer sales. If the album isn't selling in the stores, then the record companies have no reason to ship them out because there is still shipment that needs to be pushed already in the stores. "Falling Into You" has "sold" over 30 million copies because there was such a consumer demand for the album. This doesn't mean that 30 million people have the album in their hands, it means that because so many people were buying the album off the shelves, her record company was shipping and distributing them at a high rate, due to consumer sales. But some of those 30 million copies are still sitting on shelves in record stores. While we are now in a digital age of music, the demand for physical CD's is drastically less, therefore not as many copies of albums are being shipped out to give Celine the same RIAA certification as it normally would. I'm not exactly sure how they factor in the digital sales of albums with physical now though.

Edited by CelinesDIVO5, 24 December 2012 - 02:23 AM.

[wjd]

The RIAA has nothing to do with direct customer sales.

They track shipments only - don't confuse the issue for others. You're right when you say that customer demand will drive the number of albums shipped by the label, thus influencing the RIAA audit. But still, the RIAA only track shipments.

As for the World Music Awards - that same awards issues Michael Jackson an award for 750m sales - and any same person knows he hasn't sold that many records. For 6 years, I've researched Celine - and my figures and estimations are good, very good.

She has sold roughly what i said she's sold, earlier on the topic.

She's tremendously successful - only Madonna has sold more records as far as females go.

[wjd]

To answer your other question, with digital sales it works slightly different - the RIAA will use retail sales of that + label shipments of physical copies to determine a certification.

CelinesDIVO5, on 24 December 2012 - 02:09 AM, said:

How is this possible in 2012 though, when in 2004 she was awarded the Diamond World Music Award for surpassing sales of 175 million???

Also to make a simple explanation of  customer sales vs. RIAA certification...RIAA certifications are also based on customer sales. If the album isn't selling in the stores, then the record companies have no reason to ship them out because there is still shipment that needs to be pushed already in the stores. "Falling Into You" has "sold" over 30 million copies because there was such a consumer demand for the album. This doesn't mean that 30 million people have the album in their hands, it means that because so many people were buying the album off the shelves, her record company was shipping and distributing them at a high rate, due to consumer sales. But some of those 30 million copies are still sitting on shelves in record stores. While we are now in a digital age of music, the demand for physical CD's is drastically less, therefore not as many copies of albums are being shipped out to give Celine the same RIAA certification as it normally would. I'm not exactly sure how they factor in the digital sales of albums with physical now though.

[CelinesDIVO5]

wjd, on 25 December 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

The RIAA has nothing to do with direct customer sales.

They track shipments only - don't confuse the issue for others. You're right when you say that customer demand will drive the number of albums shipped by the label, thus influencing the RIAA audit. But still, the RIAA only track shipments.

As for the World Music Awards - that same awards issues Michael Jackson an award for 750m sales - and any same person knows he hasn't sold that many records. For 6 years, I've researched Celine - and my figures and estimations are good, very good.

She has sold roughly what i said she's sold, earlier on the topic.

She's tremendously successful - only Madonna has sold more records as far as females go.

I wasn't saying that sales were the source for certification. What I was saying is that without the physical albums selling in the stores, there would be no reason for more to be shipped out. So in a way, the direct consumer sales do have something to do with the certification, they just aren't tracked by how many leave the store. That's what I was saying.

[wjd]

CelinesDIVO5, on 25 December 2012 - 10:40 AM, said:

I wasn't saying that sales were the source for certification. What I was saying is that without the physical albums selling in the stores, there would be no reason for more to be shipped out. So in a way, the direct consumer sales do have something to do with the certification, they just aren't tracked by how many leave the store. That's what I was saying.

No, you're confusing the matter - the only time the RIAA will act is when paid by the label anyway.

Just leave it as it should be - sales by soundscan and shipments by the RIAA

[garçon]

wjd, on 25 December 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

The RIAA has nothing to do with direct customer sales.

They track shipments only - don't confuse the issue for others. You're right when you say that customer demand will drive the number of albums shipped by the label, thus influencing the RIAA audit. But still, the RIAA only track shipments.

As for the World Music Awards - that same awards issues Michael Jackson an award for 750m sales - and any same person knows he hasn't sold that many records. For 6 years, I've researched Celine - and my figures and estimations are good, very good.

She has sold roughly what i said she's sold, earlier on the topic.

She's tremendously successful - only Madonna has sold more records as far as females go.

Is there any possibility that you could share your estimations of Celine's every album sales? I would love to know the current number of global sales of ATW... a decade of song.

[CelinesDIVO5]

wjd, on 25 December 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

No, you're confusing the matter - the only time the RIAA will act is when paid by the label anyway.

Just leave it as it should be - sales by soundscan and shipments by the RIAA

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think you understand what I am saying. I know that sales are calculated by soundscan, and shipments by RIAA...but without sales, there's no reason to ship. I'm not saying that the sales certify an album. I'm saying that if they don't sell...they just sit there in the store, and they will also just sit at wherever they are shipped from. Because without sales, there's no reason to ship and overflow the stores with a zillion copies of CD's. Therefore, If CD's don't sell in the stores, the stores are not going to open their inventory for more copies of an album, because they aren't moving.

[wjd]

CelinesDIVO5, on 26 December 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think you understand what I am saying. I know that sales are calculated by soundscan, and shipments by RIAA...but without sales, there's no reason to ship. I'm not saying that the sales certify an album. I'm saying that if they don't sell...they just sit there in the store, and they will also just sit at wherever they are shipped from. Because without sales, there's no reason to ship and overflow the stores with a zillion copies of CD's. Therefore, If CD's don't sell in the stores, the stores are not going to open their inventory for more copies of an album, because they aren't moving.

Yea, but that just confuses the matter for someone like garçon who doesn't really know a great deal about this, but is obviously very keen to learn.

I understand fully what you are saying - you are describing the very basic theory of supply and demand.

But all people to understand is that the RIAA are not interested in retail sales - they are interested in wholesale sales (I.e. shipments) - in the case of digital sales, the retail sale will count as a shipment, but that's another story.