84 replies to this topic

[Abodi2002]

AdrienneM, le 28 November 2023 - 03:59 PM, dit :

You can’t be serious? The note in All By Myself is REVERED because of its throat-destroying intensity. The note is very much strained, it’s at the top of her belting range (which even Celine herself has said many times) and it’s an incredibly she’d note to sustain. Even when she lowered it by 2 semitones on tour during the Falling Into You era it was often still very strained and tense.

As for the note in RDMH it being a rock song doesn’t mean the note has to be so painfully strained that it probably hurt her throat to sing. She never once sang it like that live, and often sang it with far better technique and far less strain than the studio version. Tina, who had incredibly raspy vocals during most of her peak as a singer, never sang the note with that level of scratchiness. The notes were strained (in my opinion, unintentionally) BECAUSE she sang notes at the very peak of her range in almost pure chest voice, which I’m sure any singer or vocal coach would tell you is just silly to do for your own vocal health.

Interesting the upper belts for Falling into You are so chesty, by 1998 she had gone the complete opposite direction and belts above EB5 were quite heady more often than not.

[CelinesDIVO5]

AdrienneM, le 28 November 2023 - 03:59 PM, dit :

You can’t be serious? The note in All By Myself is REVERED because of its throat-destroying intensity. The note is very much strained, it’s at the top of her belting range (which even Celine herself has said many times) and it’s an incredibly she’d note to sustain. Even when she lowered it by 2 semitones on tour during the Falling Into You era it was often still very strained and tense.

As for the note in RDMH it being a rock song doesn’t mean the note has to be so painfully strained that it probably hurt her throat to sing. She never once sang it like that live, and often sang it with far better technique and far less strain than the studio version. Tina, who had incredibly raspy vocals during most of her peak as a singer, never sang the note with that level of scratchiness. The notes were strained (in my opinion, unintentionally) BECAUSE she sang notes at the very peak of her range in almost pure chest voice, which I’m sure any singer or vocal coach would tell you is just silly to do for your own vocal health.

I’m quite serious actually. The level of rasp at which is being picked apart in the last couple of pages makes it sound like she was a roaring lioness, protecting a cub. Of course there is rasp in the note. It’s quite evident, but it’s nowhere near the severity at which it’s all of a sudden being picked apart like. I simply added the fact that there is also some distortion in the note due to the quality of the microphones back in the 90s. Technology was just barely there enough for Celine’s voice in 2007, let alone 1995/96.

What people are calling strain in some of these notes (BYLM, really?) is just a word being used incorrectly. I personally think these conversations are happening because there is nothing else to talk about. On a flip side of tired vocals, years ago people commented on how “tired” Celine sounded on the TAST album, and now it’s being touted as one of the most glorious recorded vocals of her career…and now an Album Of The Year, Grammy Award winning, 30+ Million record selling album is being picked apart as one of the most strained vocals of her career…where it’s actually quite the opposite.

And yes. Live vocals were most definitely a little tired in that era. Even on songs like IACBTMN. I don’t attribute that to the keys of the songs though. I would say touring-album-touring-album-touring would be to blame mostly for that.

Edited by CelinesDIVO5, 28 November 2023 - 04:53 PM.

[Chantemoi]

So we can agree the strain on FIY wasn’t because she was vocally out of shape - it’s because those notes in question were pushing her out of her comfortable (healthy) range. It wouldn’t matter at any point in her career if she tried to hit those notes in the studio, there has to be some limit for her range… only it hadn’t ever been recorded and used on the album until FIY.

[CelinesDIVO5]

Chantemoi, le 28 November 2023 - 05:25 PM, dit :

So we can agree the strain on FIY wasn’t because she was vocally out of shape - it’s because those notes in question were pushing her out of her comfortable (healthy) range. It wouldn’t matter at any point in her career if she tried to hit those notes in the studio, there has to be some limit for her range… only it hadn’t ever been recorded and used on the album until FIY.

But not every high note that has rasp is out of her range or “strained.” Sometimes it’s stylistic. Not to mention the way that a note is sung also has much to do with it. Some of the notes at the end of “Fly” are higher than the note in “All By Myself.” The notes in Fly are smoother as they are not a belt. I’m just taken back at the way this album is all of a sudden being picked apart for “raspy” notes, and now it doesn’t sit in place with her vocals on TCOML or LTAL. It’s wild to me.

Adrienne mentioned that she “never sang” RDMH live, the way she did on the record. No. She didn’t. In fact, 9.9 times out of 10, she didn’t even attempt to sustain the note. She hit it, and then did some lazy acrobatics to get around it. But when you listen to the record, I do not hear a strained vocal on the song. I hear a rather intentional vocal of a woman rocking out to a banging arrangement.

Edited by CelinesDIVO5, 28 November 2023 - 05:48 PM.

[queenofvegas]

CelinesDIVO5, le 28 November 2023 - 03:27 PM, dit :

Surprisingly there isn't much rasp on the note in ABM. A little bit, yes, but it conveys the emotion. Any other "distortion" (for lack of a better word) is honestly because of where technology was at the time vs. her voice.

RDMH, it's a rock song tried and true. How she sang the song was a stylistic choice.

The word "strained" is not being used correctly here. If you want the definition of strained high notes, just go listen to any Demi Lovato performance. Strained is definitely not the word for the FIY album.

The ABM high note in particular was pretty hardcore strained in the studio though (even more so in the Spanish version). Whether or not it's intentional, who knows. You can hear it more clearly in isolation. The instrumental covers it a bit https://youtu.be/2W3...r2CXI1RgA&t=192

[queenofvegas]

Chantemoi, le 28 November 2023 - 05:25 PM, dit :

So we can agree the strain on FIY wasn't because she was vocally out of shape - it's because those notes in question were pushing her out of her comfortable (healthy) range. It wouldn't matter at any point in her career if she tried to hit those notes in the studio, there has to be some limit for her range… only it hadn't ever been recorded and used on the album until FIY.

Yes. I think there was some interview she did around 1995 where she mentioned something about Jean-Jacques Goldman influencing her to not focus as much on technique when in studio. It explains the pushing on some high notes and what not.

[LukeD]

CelinesDIVO5, le 28 November 2023 - 05:44 PM, dit :

But not every high note that has rasp is out of her range or "strained." Sometimes it's stylistic. Not to mention the way that a note is sung also has much to do with it. Some of the notes at the end of "Fly" are higher than the note in "All By Myself." The notes in Fly are smoother as they are not a belt. I'm just taken back at the way this album is all of a sudden being picked apart for "raspy" notes, and now it doesn't sit in place with her vocals on TCOML or LTAL. It's wild to me.

Adrienne mentioned that she "never sang" RDMH live, the way she did on the record. No. She didn't. In fact, 9.9 times out of 10, she didn't even attempt to sustain the note. She hit it, and then did some lazy acrobatics to get around it. But when you listen to the record, I do not hear a strained vocal on the song. I hear a rather intentional vocal of a woman rocking out to a banging arrangement.

Excuse me, but I've been thinking that FIY included strained notes for the past 15 years or so, especially during 2008 - 2011 that I was heavily into vocal pedagogy clips on YT that often drew from pop singers' body of work. This is not to say or imply I am an expert or anything. I am simply responding to your comment that all these discussions happen ''all of sudden'' because ''there is nothing else to discuss''. I have made some posts about FIY in this forum as well on a number of occasions. It is not the first time I am being critical of its high notes. That said, I will not try to convince you about what I'm saying. In all honesty, I do not even remember the last time you agreed with something I said. I believe our last 15 interactions or so involve you expressing your disagreement. So yeah.

[Chantemoi]

CelinesDIVO5, le 28 November 2023 - 05:44 PM, dit :

But not every high note that has rasp is out of her range or “strained.” Sometimes it’s stylistic. Not to mention the way that a note is sung also has much to do with it. Some of the notes at the end of “Fly” are higher than the note in “All By Myself.” The notes in Fly are smoother as they are not a belt. I’m just taken back at the way this album is all of a sudden being picked apart for “raspy” notes, and now it doesn’t sit in place with her vocals on TCOML or LTAL. It’s wild to me.

Adrienne mentioned that she “never sang” RDMH live, the way she did on the record. No. She didn’t. In fact, 9.9 times out of 10, she didn’t even attempt to sustain the note. She hit it, and then did some lazy acrobatics to get around it. But when you listen to the record, I do not hear a strained vocal on the song. I hear a rather intentional vocal of a woman rocking out to a banging arrangement.

Perhaps you’re right about it being a stylistic approach on RDMH… I’m not sure what to call that technique (it’s not exactly vocal fry, is it?) but until I see empirical evidence by someone who can name the technique, the exact note and also prove her belting range at that time, I’ll at least keep my mind open to the possibility that it was at least *close* to her limit in 1996. If it wasn’t, then I believe she would have tried it once or twice live — and we have no evidence of that happening.

[Taking Chances]

Chantemoi, le 28 November 2023 - 08:16 PM, dit :

Perhaps you're right about it being a stylistic approach on RDMH… I'm not sure what to call that technique (it's not exactly vocal fry, is it?) but until I see empirical evidence by someone who can name the technique, the exact note and also prove her belting range at that time, I'll at least keep my mind open to the possibility that it was at least *close* to her limit in 1996. If it wasn't, then I believe she would have tried it once or twice live — and we have no evidence of that happening.

She sings the F5 high note in River Deep Mountain High with a lot of "grit" to it. F5 is the same note as the high note in All By Myself, but in RDMH she uses a different register.

I've never particularly liked the "grit" she used in the studio version, but she definitely could have used a different register, technique, or mix to achieve a different F5 without the strained quality to it, so maybe it was a deliberate choice to give the note more character.

Edited by Taking Chances, 28 November 2023 - 09:29 PM.

[Chantemoi]

Taking Chances, le 28 November 2023 - 09:27 PM, dit :

She sings the F5 high note in River Deep Mountain High with a lot of "grit" to it. F5 is the same note as the high note in All By Myself, but in RDMH she uses a different register.

I've never particularly liked the "grit" she used in the studio version, but she definitely could have used a different register, technique, or mix to achieve a different F5 without the strained quality to it, so maybe it was a deliberate choice to give the note more character.

Interesting. Thanks for the details. Isn’t the F5 the top of her belting range—at least live? I seem to remember that being the note she hit (sans “grit”) for Natural Woman at the Divas Live concert, and certainly that was a different “register” as you say, but can you think of other times she belted that note live in a concert?


** EDIT: maybe that wasn’t a true belt? Maybe it was mixed?

Edited by Chantemoi, 28 November 2023 - 10:58 PM.

[CelinesDIVO5]

Chantemoi, le 28 November 2023 - 10:57 PM, dit :

Interesting. Thanks for the details. Isn’t the F5 the top of her belting range—at least live? I seem to remember that being the note she hit (sans “grit”) for Natural Woman at the Divas Live concert, and certainly that was a different “register” as you say, but can you think of other times she belted that note live in a concert?


** EDIT: maybe that wasn’t a true belt? Maybe it was mixed?

The note for “Natural Woman” was totally head voice.

[Chantemoi]

CelinesDIVO5 dit :

1701234600[/url]' post='2440331']
The note for "Natural Woman" was totally head voice.

Does that mean it's outside her normal belting range?

Edited by Chantemoi, 28 November 2023 - 11:21 PM.

[LukeD]

Chantemoi, le 28 November 2023 - 10:57 PM, dit :

Interesting. Thanks for the details. Isn't the F5 the top of her belting range—at least live? I seem to remember that being the note she hit (sans "grit") for Natural Woman at the Divas Live concert, and certainly that was a different "register" as you say, but can you think of other times she belted that note live in a concert?


** EDIT: maybe that wasn't a true belt? Maybe it was mixed?

I am under the impression that note was a G5. She had some decent G5s but most tend to be somewhat heady, which does not harm the vocal cords so I am ok with it.

[CelinesDIVO5]

Chantemoi, le 28 November 2023 - 11:18 PM, dit :

Does that mean it's outside her normal belting range?

Not at all, just a different way of belting. You can absolutely belt in your head voice. As a singer, for higher notes, my head voice belts are much richer and resonant than when I try to use my chest or mix to belt higher notes that are at the top of my tenor range. It’s all about placement. In that performance of “Natural Woman” you can hear her placement in her head, almost behind her nose for lack of a better way to explain, and then when she comes down on that run, she uses a mix.

Edited by CelinesDIVO5, 29 November 2023 - 02:37 AM.

[CelinesDIVO5]

Chantemoi, le 28 November 2023 - 08:16 PM, dit :

Perhaps you’re right about it being a stylistic approach on RDMH… I’m not sure what to call that technique (it’s not exactly vocal fry, is it?) but until I see empirical evidence by someone who can name the technique, the exact note and also prove her belting range at that time, I’ll at least keep my mind open to the possibility that it was at least *close* to her limit in 1996. If it wasn’t, then I believe she would have tried it once or twice live — and we have no evidence of that happening.

I wouldn’t call it vocal fry. Vocal fry is what I think of when I hear a Kardashian speak.

I’m honestly not sure how to explain it. There are just different ways of using your voice for different genres. Like, you wouldn’t intentionally rasp your voice for opera or classical music. But you would for more of a rock sound. Which is perfect for RDMH. Some singers add intentional “growls.” Toni Braxton did that often, actually. Sometimes an artist may feel that certain parts of a song call for a certain sound. Whether it’s in their own voice or in production. Like when Celine was recording “Can’t Fight The Feeling,” she was trying to tell John Shanks that she felt a certain part of the song needed a specific sound on her voice. I can’t remember at the moment what she was asking for though.

[blueangel92]

I just have only question is that why Celine tends to hit the notes and does it creatively during soundcheck. She usually plays safe when going on stage.

[CelinesDIVO5]

LukeD, le 28 November 2023 - 07:48 PM, dit :

Excuse me, but I've been thinking that FIY included strained notes for the past 15 years or so, especially during 2008 - 2011 that I was heavily into vocal pedagogy clips on YT that often drew from pop singers' body of work. This is not to say or imply I am an expert or anything. I am simply responding to your comment that all these discussions happen ''all of sudden'' because ''there is nothing else to discuss''. I have made some posts about FIY in this forum as well on a number of occasions. It is not the first time I am being critical of its high notes. That said, I will not try to convince you about what I'm saying. In all honesty, I do not even remember the last time you agreed with something I said. I believe our last 15 interactions or so involve you expressing your disagreement. So yeah.

I just simply do not agree that we can call any vocals on FIY weak. I don’t find the note on ABM “strained” simply because there’s rasp. If it was strained, it wouldn’t have the power behind it that it did. Was it at the top of her register? 100%. Would it cause some rasp to belt at that level? Absolutely. I don’t think anyone could have done that note the way David Foster wanted it with any type of crystal clear resonance. Not even Whitney Houston. David would not put a stamp of approval on a “strained vocal” for one of his productions.

We keep going around in circles that rasp seems to mean strain. We have all watched the recording sessions of “The Reason.” Many times I’m sure. I watch it at least once a week. The entire climax is raspy. Is she straining her voice there too? I would say no based on how Sir George Martin and Carole King were reacting. Rasp comes out in a voice for all types of reasons, be it intentional or not. But it does not always = strain. When I think of Celine’s vocal strain, I think of ANDLILV, and many of her early 2000’s performances post the ANDHC era. Most recently that I can think of strain are actually in “Immortality” at The Bee Gees Tribute, and when she sang for the tribute to Paris when she sang “Hymne á L’amour.” The latter which I’d attribute to emotions.

Edited by CelinesDIVO5, 29 November 2023 - 03:07 AM.

[Abodi2002]

Celine hit quite a few F5s live but I wouldn’t necessarily give her consistency to that note, especially out of her prime. The “everything belts in If You Asked Me To, the just a little faith parts in the second and final chorus of Love Can Move Mountains, 1992 and 1993 performances only, the “love will find a way” and the “love can, love can move mountains” at the end of the song
The “you gotta believe baby, river deep yeah, mountain high” part of RDMH in Letterman. The Queenofvegas youtube channel has a video of her F5s throughout her career.

[AdrienneM]

CelinesDIVO5, le 28 November 2023 - 11:10 PM, dit :

The note for “Natural Woman” was totally head voice.

It most certainly wasn’t. The voice doesn’t work like that. The note can be mixed on a scale with a different percentage of head and chest, but that note is not just head voice. It’s very clearly a belt. All By Myself and RDMH sound so painful because they’re almost entirely chest voice and she’s pushing her voice to a total extreme. An example of her singing that high (and higher) in a balanced mix similar to the Natural Woman note is in Des Mots Qui Sonnent.

[Abodi2002]

AdrienneM, le 29 November 2023 - 10:34 AM, dit :

It most certainly wasn’t. The voice doesn’t work like that. The note can be mixed on a scale with a different percentage of head and chest, but that note is not just head voice. It’s very clearly a belt. All By Myself and RDMH sound so painful because they’re almost entirely chest voice and she’s pushing her voice to a total extreme. An example of her singing that high (and higher) in a balanced mix similar to the Natural Woman note is in Des Mots Qui Sonnent.

Dmqs genuinely has one of her best, if not her best studio G5.

[CelinesDIVO5]

AdrienneM, le 29 November 2023 - 10:34 AM, dit :

It most certainly wasn’t. The voice doesn’t work like that. The note can be mixed on a scale with a different percentage of head and chest, but that note is not just head voice. It’s very clearly a belt. All By Myself and RDMH sound so painful because they’re almost entirely chest voice and she’s pushing her voice to a total extreme. An example of her singing that high (and higher) in a balanced mix similar to the Natural Woman note is in Des Mots Qui Sonnent.

You can most definitely belt in head voice only. And you can clearly hear the flip from chest to head from “close to you because you make me feel so” (chest) “ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE” (head).

[AdrienneM]

CelinesDIVO5, le 29 November 2023 - 11:37 AM, dit :

You can most definitely belt in head voice only. And you can clearly hear the flip from chest to head from “close to you because you make me feel so” (chest) “ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE” (head).

That’s not how the voice works at all. The categories of M1, M2 and M3 are defined things. No vocal coach, expert in vocal pedagogy or even opera singer with their own education would ever claim you can “belt” in head voice

[LukeD]

CelinesDIVO5, le 29 November 2023 - 02:58 AM, dit :

I just simply do not agree that we can call any vocals on FIY weak. I don't find the note on ABM "strained" simply because there's rasp. If it was strained, it wouldn't have the power behind it that it did. Was it at the top of her register? 100%. Would it cause some rasp to belt at that level? Absolutely. I don't think anyone could have done that note the way David Foster wanted it with any type of crystal clear resonance. Not even Whitney Houston. David would not put a stamp of approval on a "strained vocal" for one of his productions.

We keep going around in circles that rasp seems to mean strain.

I will make this as concise as possible.

1.There are several singers who can mix properly and sustain F5s. Aretha, Patti, Monica Naranjo, Lara Fabian, Anastacia, even Ariana Grande on occasions.

2.There is no such thing as belting in head voice. Belting high notes requires a balanced mix of chest voice and head voice.

3.In instances where the mix is not balanced and there is more chest voice than head voice, then you get this raspy, throaty sound, because the singer is raising their larynx.

4.Raising the larynx like this can cause voice damage. Sometimes permanent. Perfect example is Christina Aguilera whose voice was shot as of 2010.

5.Celine has several good F5s and F#5s in her repertoire. For instance live performances of LCMM, IYAMT, NBBMH, Delivre-Moi, Fade Away, Have A Heart.

6.The majority of the public would agree with you that this throaty/raspy/whatever-you-want-to-call-it sound works great for soft rock songs like ABM and RDMH. I actually think this singing approach contributed to the appeal of FIY. But fact remains that to be pushing the voice like this is an unhealthy singing approach. For me, and many others, it is not pleasant to the ears either. I much prefer the live versions of Water From The Moon and Call The Man in which we hear to crystal clear, resonant belts.

[Taking Chances]

Chantemoi, le 28 November 2023 - 10:57 PM, dit :

Interesting. Thanks for the details. Isn't the F5 the top of her belting range—at least live? I seem to remember that being the note she hit (sans "grit") for Natural Woman at the Divas Live concert, and certainly that was a different "register" as you say, but can you think of other times she belted that note live in a concert?


** EDIT: maybe that wasn't a true belt? Maybe it was mixed?

It's interesting because F5 is not really a note that is often "belted". It's usually a part of a vocal run or melisma. That's what makes the high note in All By Myself so impressive because it's a belted chest voice in F5.

To my ears, the F5 in River Deep Mountain High sounds like a pure mix, which probably the reason for the quality of the note. But in All By Myself it's a pure chest voice. It makes a huge difference. Also in RDMH it's just straight into the note, there is no vocal run before it to ease into it.

I had to look on YouTube and someone made a video of Celine's F5's. It's pretty interesting.

[CelinesDIVO5]

I guess my vocal coaches over the last 25 years have just been steering me wrong then.