11 replies to this topic

[samart]

Hello, everybody!

I've got 2 questions that have been bothering me for a long time now. OK, here we go.

Unlike British english, American english is known for its Rs(I mean every "r' that's in a word is pronounced). However, almost every singer tends NOT to pronounce this letter when performing(including Celine). So, "the whispeRs in the moRning of loveRs..." sounds a bit british consonantwise(if that's a word)   The question is - how come? Is it a general rule or just a way of singing?

The second question concerns the schwa sound(a neutral, non-stressed sound like in "surrenDER"). In songs this vowel sounds freakishly different. Having done my research, I discovered that it can graduate from almost E (kisses, horses in "Map to my heart") to O/A in "I surrender". What's the criterion here?

Would be glad to hear any explanations!
Thanks in advance!

[Krys]

actually, all sorts of English is the same lol. it just depends on how each individual prefers to pronounce certain words. in the cases of "whispers" and "lovers" the "r" can be omitted. "morning" is a diff case though. its supposed to be pronounced with the "r" (if you go according to the dictionary).

for "surrender", i guess its just Celine's way of pronouncing it when she sings the song. maybe its easier for her to sing it that way

[MTJ]

I took singing lessons for a year and learned some things like this. The songs usually sound better when Rs are softened. Also, something I didn't know before, THE is pronounced differently depending on the next word. If it is followed by a consonant, it is pronounced like DUH, if followed by a vowel, it is pronounced like THEE.

[LuisMa]

I'm not a native American, but I've studied Linguistics and have been a phonology professor for years, so here's my take on your question.

All sorts of English are not the same and it's not about preference of pronunciation. It's about dialectal variation. A dialect is the variation of a language and it may occur because of regional, ethnic, or social aspects. Then, of course there's everyone's idiolect, which is the personal way of using a language, which also has to do with pronunciation (language problems, aphasia, etc, etc).

I agree also with imgoingtobiteyoure_face that there is as well stylistic variation. Take for instance the song "Ten Days," where Celine emphasizes the schwa sound getting to a close latin a. That's style.

There are also many songs by British artists who sound American, but others whose accents are pretty noticeable, haven't you seen that? Some artists also are produced in a way that their accent sounds as mainstream as possible; for example I loooove Cheryl Cole's accent (she's a member of Girls Aloud). She pronounces the i diphthong /ai/ as /ei/: mine as /mein/ inclined as /incleined/, and I was just carefully listening to her songs to see if she also used her accent, but she didn't.

Hope it helps.

[samart]

Wow, thanks for your answers!

[neilg]

LuisMa, on Aug 27 2009, 10:18 AM, said:

I'm not a native American, but I've studied Linguistics and have been a phonology professor for years, so here's my take on your question.

All sorts of English are not the same and it's not about preference of pronunciation. It's about dialectal variation. A dialect is the variation of a language and it may occur because of regional, ethnic, or social aspects. Then, of course there's everyone's idiolect, which is the personal way of using a language, which also has to do with pronunciation (language problems, aphasia, etc, etc).

I agree also with imgoingtobiteyoure_face that there is as well stylistic variation. Take for instance the song "Ten Days," where Celine emphasizes the schwa sound getting to a close latin a. That's style.

There are also many songs by British artists who sound American, but others whose accents are pretty noticeable, haven't you seen that? Some artists also are produced in a way that their accent sounds as mainstream as possible; for example I loooove Cheryl Cole's accent (she's a member of Girls Aloud). She pronounces the i diphthong /ai/ as /ei/: mine as /mein/ inclined as /incleined/, and I was just carefully listening to her songs to see if she also used her accent, but she didn't.

Hope it helps.

Ohhh, I dislike Cheryl Cole's accent immensely!  She's sounds typical of an un-educated person.

In British English, people who pronounce Rs noticeably tend to be from lower to lower middle-class backgrounds.  Like typical English chavs or scallies or pikeys, whatever you want to call them.  Regional accents like Gloucestershire and Somerset have harsh-sounding Rs and makes them sound like farmers.

Middle to upper-class people tend to substitute Rs with 'Ah' sounds.

I have noticed though, that some British singers, (except Lily Allen, who also has a terrible accent) sing with American accents.  Maybe it's just to be fashionable?

[whineupemily]

neilg, on Feb 12 2010, 05:44 PM, said:

(except Lily Allen, who also has a terrible accent)

I love me some Lily Allen  

[Bell]

neilg, on Feb 12 2010, 12:44 PM, said:

In British English, people who pronounce Rs noticeably tend to be from lower to lower middle-class backgrounds. Like typical English chavs or scallies or pikeys, whatever you want to call them.  Regional accents like Gloucestershire and Somerset have harsh-sounding Rs and makes them sound like farmers.

Middle to upper-class people tend to substitute Rs with 'Ah' sounds.

That's interesting. I've studied English since I was 11 and I definitely prefer British accent than any other. For me it's the right one.

[neilg]

Bell, on Feb 13 2010, 04:58 PM, said:

neilg, on Feb 12 2010, 12:44 PM, said:

In British English, people who pronounce Rs noticeably tend to be from lower to lower middle-class backgrounds. Like typical English chavs or scallies or pikeys, whatever you want to call them.  Regional accents like Gloucestershire and Somerset have harsh-sounding Rs and makes them sound like farmers.

Middle to upper-class people tend to substitute Rs with 'Ah' sounds.

That's interesting. I've studied English since I was 11 and I definitely prefer British accent than any other. For me it's the right one.

Haha!  It's interesting that you prefer British accents...



Most people in the UK sound like Vicky Pollard and her father.  Very few people speak like the narrator and Trisha, which is how I guess you imagine British people to speak.

I think upper-class American accents sound so good.  It sounds much better than all British accents!

[samart]

Bell, on Feb 13 2010, 11:58 AM, said:

neilg, on Feb 12 2010, 12:44 PM, said:

In British English, people who pronounce Rs noticeably tend to be from lower to lower middle-class backgrounds. Like typical English chavs or scallies or pikeys, whatever you want to call them.  Regional accents like Gloucestershire and Somerset have harsh-sounding Rs and makes them sound like farmers.

Middle to upper-class people tend to substitute Rs with 'Ah' sounds.

That's interesting. I've studied English since I was 11 and I definitely prefer British accent than any other. For me it's the right one.

I don't think there is the right or the wrong one, per se. Diversity is good, it's what our world is built upon.

I had also preferred BrE(though it wasn't a choice really 'cause British english is the official english in russian schools), before I got totally hung up on "Friends". So hung up that the apperance of the girl from London, Emily, during the 4th season almost shocked me. Her accent surrounded by American accent of the characters sounded bizzare to my ear to say the least, and there were times when I couldn't make out what she was saying. That's when my decision to start learning american accent was made.

Plus, it depends on the indivudual. I remember I absolutely loved listening to the man who read the audio version of "The velveteen rabbit" just because of the way he was reading it.
But I also get a secret pleasure from listening to Helen Mirren. On the other hand, Jonathan Ross,  especially on the radio, is tiresome to my ears.

[neilg]

samart, on Feb 20 2010, 07:09 PM, said:

Bell, on Feb 13 2010, 11:58 AM, said:

neilg, on Feb 12 2010, 12:44 PM, said:

In British English, people who pronounce Rs noticeably tend to be from lower to lower middle-class backgrounds. Like typical English chavs or scallies or pikeys, whatever you want to call them.  Regional accents like Gloucestershire and Somerset have harsh-sounding Rs and makes them sound like farmers.

Middle to upper-class people tend to substitute Rs with 'Ah' sounds.

That's interesting. I've studied English since I was 11 and I definitely prefer British accent than any other. For me it's the right one.

I don't think there is the right or the wrong one, per se. Diversity is good, it's what our world is built upon.

I had also preferred BrE(though it wasn't a choice really 'cause British english is the official english in russian schools), before I got totally hung up on "Friends". So hung up that the apperance of the girl from London, Emily, during the 4th season almost shocked me. Her accent surrounded by American accent of the characters sounded bizzare to my ear to say the least, and there were times when I couldn't make out what she was saying. That's when my decision to start learning american accent was made.

Plus, it depends on the indivudual. I remember I absolutely loved listening to the man who read the audio version of "The velveteen rabbit" just because of the way he was reading it.
But I also get a secret pleasure from listening to Helen Mirren. On the other hand, Jonathan Ross,  especially on the radio, is tiresome to my ears.

Ohh, Emily from friends!  I was convinced she was an American putting on a British accent.  It actually sounds fake - I think she was told to over-exaggerate her British accent, because I don't know anyone who sounds like her.  Even Helen Mirren doesn't sound as false.

Jonathon Ross is tiresome to listen to because he has an impediment - he can't pronounce Rs, and pronounces them as Ws, as I'm sure you've noticed.  Some people find it endearing - it drives me mad!

[maddie-]

for me, my voice teacher always tells me to soften my consonants, because they r difficult to sing on, and they sound harsh.  I always stress and hold my vowels because they sound more mellow and soft, and your voice can glide in and out of it more easily.  I always just lightly touch the consonants and empathize my vowels, especially at the end of a phrase.  I hope this helps!
We also tend to slur our words together, so I guess pronouncing it the british way makes it more clear and understandable.

Edited by maddie-, 21 February 2010 - 03:01 AM.